| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Is my workflow flawed? Working on brochures/manuals for print Thread poster: Serena Marangoni
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I'm mostly a self-taught translator when it comes to translation practice (rather than theory). I have a good knowledge of Illustrator and inDesign and the kind of projects I take for direct clients often require this, as the client want a finished product that can go straight to print.
I have this client who normally sends me pdfs of manuals, brochures, often with complicate formatting. This is how I work:
If the original is in illustrator, I work on the translation f... See more I'm mostly a self-taught translator when it comes to translation practice (rather than theory). I have a good knowledge of Illustrator and inDesign and the kind of projects I take for direct clients often require this, as the client want a finished product that can go straight to print.
I have this client who normally sends me pdfs of manuals, brochures, often with complicate formatting. This is how I work:
If the original is in illustrator, I work on the translation from the pdf file with Cafe Tran, then copy-paste the translation into the original illustrator file and adjust the graphics (I translate into Italian, from English, which means I usually need to adjust tables, move images, etc... to accomodate for longer text.)
When the original is an indesign file, I convert it to .indml and work in Trados, then do the same adjustments.
My client is a reseller of products produced in Japan, so all these files come from Japan (on CDs, sent by airmail). The Japanese company works with other resellers from other countries and thus with other translators. I'm under the impression (when my client writes them to request the original files), that they think I'm a "strange" translator and often wonder why I can't just work on the PDFs.
How do other translators work? Is it that strange that I ask for the original files? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I know very little about this, but... | Dec 20, 2017 |
You obviously know how to handle the software you work in.
Many (or most?) translators do not have InDesign or Illustrator, and depend on others to work with them where necessary.
So we have to work with PDFs, and they can be an absolute pain! They are slightly better with Acrobat, which I have, but there is still a limit on how much you can do. The latest versions of Trados Studio are a great help.
I tell clients I am a translator, not a DTP expert, and for me, t... See more You obviously know how to handle the software you work in.
Many (or most?) translators do not have InDesign or Illustrator, and depend on others to work with them where necessary.
So we have to work with PDFs, and they can be an absolute pain! They are slightly better with Acrobat, which I have, but there is still a limit on how much you can do. The latest versions of Trados Studio are a great help.
I tell clients I am a translator, not a DTP expert, and for me, the investment in InDesign or Illustrator would not pay off - I concentrate on texts, and prefer documents in Word.
I do occasionally make adjustments in PowerPoint, but many clients (and I myself) prefer to let the client's DTP department do it. It takes time from the actual translation, but where the text does not fit into the space allocated, it is often impossible to work with PDFs, or the results are not satisfactory.
Translators like to work in software optimised for editing text, because they are not directly concerned with graphics and layout.
So yes, you are probably an unusual translator, but there are certainly others who offer the same services. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lingua 5B 
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 20:20
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Sorry, your post is a bit confusing, especially the last paragraph.
What original file are you looking for? They would consider a pdf the original file and if you are preparing their files for print, then yes, they would expect you to work in some kind of graphic design software directly.
I suppose they think you are "strange" as you say it because they in printing departments never heard of CAT Tools. It's a product sold solely to translators, via translation agencies.... See more Sorry, your post is a bit confusing, especially the last paragraph.
What original file are you looking for? They would consider a pdf the original file and if you are preparing their files for print, then yes, they would expect you to work in some kind of graphic design software directly.
I suppose they think you are "strange" as you say it because they in printing departments never heard of CAT Tools. It's a product sold solely to translators, via translation agencies. They couldn't even try selling a CAT tool to a graphic designer because their designer tools can do much more than a CAT tool can.
However, as long as you provide a usable and compatible product, why would they even care what tool you are using? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 20:20
French to English
A lot of clients find it strange when we ask for the original file not the pdf. When I tell them that either I will provide a file without any formatting at all or charge double for the trouble, they suddenly locate the Word file they used.
It's not the translator who is strange. It's the client who doesn't seem to realise that we need to replace the text while sticking to the same formatting, and that the whole point of a pdf, the reason why the format was created, is that you can... See more A lot of clients find it strange when we ask for the original file not the pdf. When I tell them that either I will provide a file without any formatting at all or charge double for the trouble, they suddenly locate the Word file they used.
It's not the translator who is strange. It's the client who doesn't seem to realise that we need to replace the text while sticking to the same formatting, and that the whole point of a pdf, the reason why the format was created, is that you can't edit it. Meaning I can send my invoices as a pdf, so I can be sure the client doesn't shave a 0 off my total.
Being able to work in Indesign and other software is added value for the client, they should be happy you do that.
I'm now mulling over the option of sending the files back in the format the client used: how many clients would be happy to get a pdf I wonder. That could be a less aggressive option than doubling my rate for a pdf... ▲ Collapse
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 20:20
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Perhaps I misunderstood it. | Dec 20, 2017 |
Texte Style wrote:
Being able to work in Indesign and other software is added value for the client, they should be happy you do that.
Where does the OP say she does that? She places all the Indesign files in a CAT tool and processes them from there. Unless I misunderstood it.
[Edited at 2017-12-20 14:24 GMT]
| | | | | I'm not an expert graphic designer but I know the software | Dec 20, 2017 |
Lingua 5B wrote: Texte Style wrote:
Being able to work in Indesign and other software is added value for the client, they should be happy you do that.
Where does the OP say she does that? She places all the Indesign files in a CAT tool and processes them from there. Unless I misunderstood it. [Edited at 2017-12-20 14:24 GMT]
Actually, I did say I have a good knowledge of illustrator and InDesign and that I make all the necessary adjustments after translating. I just specified that if you have an indesign file you can edit it in trados directly (after converting to .idml) before opening in indesign and adjusting the formatting, whereas in illustrator you have to translate (usually from a PDF converted to docx or through clipboard) and then paste the text manually.
As for your previous question, by "original file" I meant the file they used to create the pdf, I'm sorry if it sounded confusing.
And they don't think I'm strange because I use CAT tools, we haven't spoken about that. I'm just noticing that often when I ask for the indesign/illustrator file, they reply by asking why the PDF isn't enough.
What I'm asking is, do other translators work with PDFs directly? If so, do they just not do any DTP or do they do it in acrobat?
[Modificato alle 2017-12-20 15:01 GMT]
| | | | Claudia Cherici
Italy
Local time: 20:20
Member (2010)
English to Italian
+ ...
I'd say that most translators just translate, review from inside the CAT tool, edit if the target file is Word or little else, but do not do DTP. If you have the Indesign software and can open and work from inside the target file, I'd say your Clients should be very happy as this is added value for them - saves them the next step! One-stop content processing - quite an asset, IMHO
| | | | Mario Chavez (X)
Local time: 14:20
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Added value indeed | Dec 20, 2017 |
Claudia Cherici wrote:
I'd say that most translators just translate, review from inside the CAT tool, edit if the target file is Word or little else, but do not do DTP. If you have the Indesign software and can open and work from inside the target file, I'd say your Clients should be very happy as this is added value for them - saves them the next step! One-stop content processing - quite an asset, IMHO
That's what I've been doing since 2004 with Quark Xpress and InDesign.
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Mario Chavez (X)
Local time: 14:20
English to Spanish
+ ...
| What PDF files are for | Dec 20, 2017 |
Serena Marangoni wrote:
I'm mostly a self-taught translator when it comes to translation practice (rather than theory). I have a good knowledge of Illustrator and inDesign and the kind of projects I take for direct clients often require this, as the client want a finished product that can go straight to print.
I have this client who normally sends me pdfs of manuals, brochures, often with complicate formatting. This is how I work:
If the original is in illustrator, I work on the translation from the pdf file with Cafe Tran, then copy-paste the translation into the original illustrator file and adjust the graphics (I translate into Italian, from English, which means I usually need to adjust tables, move images, etc... to accomodate for longer text.)
When the original is an indesign file, I convert it to .indml and work in Trados, then do the same adjustments.
My client is a reseller of products produced in Japan, so all these files come from Japan (on CDs, sent by airmail). The Japanese company works with other resellers from other countries and thus with other translators. I'm under the impression (when my client writes them to request the original files), that they think I'm a "strange" translator and often wonder why I can't just work on the PDFs.
How do other translators work? Is it that strange that I ask for the original files?
For any file containing text to be translatable, the text has to be editable. That is, the user has to be able to change it, manipulate font size, length of sentences or paragraphs, insert tables, convert tables to text, add glyphs or special graphics, etc.
None of that is possible on a PDF file, even the “editable” ones. That's because a PDF file, even exported from a Word document or an InDesign file, is just the publishable (nonalterable) product, just like the PDF files we see as catalogs, datasheets, product brochures, price lists and the like on websites. Those PDF files are usually low-resolution to keep the size small and manageable. Any graphic designer and technical writer should know this. But managers don't usually bother with these details.
That's why I always ask to talk to the client's graphic designer regarding these things. That way, I don't need to argue my points or prove anything to the customer, since his own graphic designer will take care of that.
Now, I've been holding a parallel career (mostly part-time) as a multilingual typesetter, working with files in Quark Xpress, Illustrator, InDesign and Photoshop, on PC and Mac platforms, since 2004. That's about 13 years. I perform translations, of course, as my primary practice. However, I couldn't call myself a typesetter if I didn't have a basic understanding of graphic design and typesetting principles and owned my own DTP programs.
CAT tools such as Trados only work with the interchange files (IDML in the case of InDesign). Even if the translation is flawless, it has to be set on an InDesign or other DTP program. That requires a different set of skills.
And no, it's not strange to ask for the original files. In the case of InDesign, I always ask for the whole InDesign package, including the IDML file. I have a long-time client that I have to remind this step from time to time as they sometimes send me the INDD file and the typefaces, but no links (graphics) and no IDML. The IDML file is essential to exchange the file between different InDesign versions (from CS6 to CS4, for instance).
| | | | | It is definitely the way to go! | Dec 20, 2017 |
Serena Marangoni wrote:
If the original is in illustrator, I work on the translation from the pdf file with Cafe Tran, then copy-paste the translation into the original illustrator file and adjust the graphics (I translate into Italian, from English, which means I usually need to adjust tables, move images, etc... to accomodate for longer text.)
When the original is an indesign file, I convert it to .indml and work in Trados, then do the same adjustments.
Sounds perfectly reasonable to me! In fact, you are offering an excellent service as the customer has final source files they can print from and which can be preflighted, colour-corrected if necessary, etc. I always ask for source files and use PDF files as the very last resort.
| | | | John Fossey
Canada
Local time: 14:20
Member (2008)
French to English
+ ...
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT wrote: Serena Marangoni wrote:
If the original is in illustrator, I work on the translation from the pdf file with Cafe Tran, then copy-paste the translation into the original illustrator file and adjust the graphics (I translate into Italian, from English, which means I usually need to adjust tables, move images, etc... to accomodate for longer text.)
When the original is an indesign file, I convert it to .indml and work in Trados, then do the same adjustments. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me! In fact, you are offering an excellent service as the customer has final source files they can print from and which can be preflighted, colour-corrected if necessary, etc. I always ask for source files and use PDF files as the very last resort.
Definitely the best if you have access to the Illustrator or InDesign files and can work on them directly, especially with complex pdfs. I have a client who sent me a pdf of many hundreds of pages with lots of graphics. If I had to convert it to Word formatting would be a nightmare with a potential for a completely scrambled result. I asked them for the original InDesign file - at first they said it didn't exist, then with a bit more prodding it suddenly appeared. Translating this in MemoQ was a relative breeze and I left it up to the client to adjust the final formatting, since they had created it in the first place.
| | | | Endre Both
Germany
Local time: 20:20
English to German
| You're doing it right | Dec 20, 2017 |
It boggles the mind that anyone would attempt the kind of work you describe (translation + layout adaptation) in PDF rather than in the original editable files.
So you're doing the only sensible thing by asking for the editable files, and anyone who has doubts about your approach should rather question their own expertise in the matter.
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| CafeTran Espresso and InDesign / Illustrator files | Dec 20, 2017 |
Hello, Serena,
I too work in CafeTran Espresso and agree with you in that I always prefer to receive the original file format instead of the PDF. I apply an additional charge when I work on this input format, so clients usually present the original, if they have it. I think this applies even to translators that do not have the original application, although it is obviously a big plus to own it and know your way around, since you can perform the conversions and offer a DTP service to... See more Hello, Serena,
I too work in CafeTran Espresso and agree with you in that I always prefer to receive the original file format instead of the PDF. I apply an additional charge when I work on this input format, so clients usually present the original, if they have it. I think this applies even to translators that do not have the original application, although it is obviously a big plus to own it and know your way around, since you can perform the conversions and offer a DTP service to complete the work as well.
Once you send the translated and edited files to your clients, it should become pretty obvious why you prefer receiving the original documents and not the PDFs. The client will be able to finalize the translated file with much less DTP work (if any) and costs than if the same translation had been done via the Word format.
I have been working on some reference documents for CafeTran Espresso (https://cafetran.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/6000186313-reference-documents), especially one on File formats (supported file formats, external projects, unsupported formats and round trip/conversion solutions), which includes a lengthy discussion on PDF files. TransPDF service can also be a solution for complex layout PDFs with no original to be found.
Concerning InDesign and Illustrator files, although this is not the point of your post, I’d like to offer some additional suggestions on your described workflow. I admittedly have less experience with InDesign and have hardly worked on Illustrator files so far, so apologies if this is not useful to you.
Adobe InDesign: I think IDML is the way to go, but, just in case you want to translate and export INDD files instead, there is one easy solution, using the Language Terminal (https://www.languageterminal.com/) by Kilgray (MemoQ), which allows you to perform the translation in CafeTran Espresso, or another CAT tool (such as SDL Trados). The workflow related to CafeTran is explained in the File formats reference document.
Adobe Illustrator: The following has not been added yet in the File formats document, as there is currently an open ticket regarding the official support of SVG files. In fact, CafeTran Espresso already seems to handle SVG files just fine, using its XML filter.
Why talk about SVG files, since Illustrator files use the .AI file format? Because Adobe Illustrator can import and export SVG files, which can be used as a way to handle Adobe Illustrator projects in CafeTran Espresso, or any other tool for that matter, directly or via a round-trip (I think the same solution—to use SVG—is suggested in the MemoQ's documentation). This would avoid the copy-pasting part you describe, although I guess you will still have some editing work when finalizing the translation in Illustrator, especially to account for the EN>IT expansion rate.
However, a little care may be needed during the export to SVG in Illustrator, as described in: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Inkscape_for_Adobe_Illustrator_users#To_Save_Files_in_Inkscape_for_Use_with_Adobe_Illustrator_and_vice_versa
Kudos for being able to offer a complete service for InDesign/Illustrator files. Clients that use files from these applications might grow fond of “strange” translators who can handle the process from start to finish.
Jean
[Edited at 2017-12-20 21:09 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Daniel Frisano
Italy
Local time: 20:20
Member (2008)
English to Italian
+ ...
I don't think you're "strange". I think that any client who sends files via airmail from Japan to Italy, in 2017, is "strange".
Anyway, perhaps the PMs you are dealing with can't even comprehend that there is a pre-PDF phase at all. If they are in the marketing/sales department, they receive the finished PDFs from the guys in the technical/computer department and have no idea how such PDFs are produced.
Under the circumstances, your workflow is reasonable. Make sure tha... See more I don't think you're "strange". I think that any client who sends files via airmail from Japan to Italy, in 2017, is "strange".
Anyway, perhaps the PMs you are dealing with can't even comprehend that there is a pre-PDF phase at all. If they are in the marketing/sales department, they receive the finished PDFs from the guys in the technical/computer department and have no idea how such PDFs are produced.
Under the circumstances, your workflow is reasonable. Make sure that your client is aware that you are actually doing two jobs: translating and DTPing. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mario Chavez (X)
Local time: 14:20
English to Spanish
+ ...
| And charge for each service separately | Dec 20, 2017 |
Daniel Frisano wrote:
I don't think you're "strange". I think that any client who sends files via airmail from Japan to Italy, in 2017, is "strange".
Anyway, perhaps the PMs you are dealing with can't even comprehend that there is a pre-PDF phase at all. If they are in the marketing/sales department, they receive the finished PDFs from the guys in the technical/computer department and have no idea how such PDFs are produced.
Under the circumstances, your workflow is reasonable. Make sure that your client is aware that you are actually doing two jobs: translating and DTPing.
We translators, whether we do DTP or not in addition to translation, need to be reminded that each service has a price chart of its own. Many translators complain about their invisibility, but if we don't make each service visible to the client, then the client doesn't know what value we're adding.
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