| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | Pitiful-rate job offers on Proz Thread poster: Simon Bruni
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Giles Watson 
Italy
Local time: 09:11
Italian to English
In memoriam | Foster means encourage | Jan 29, 2012 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
What does that mean, foster competition? What kind of competition is this? Whose competing, with whom? The cheaper you are, the more jobs you get???
As I'm sure you know, Bernhard, "foster" means "encourage". Equally, you are probably also aware that there is more to competition than mere price. In any case, cost-free translations are already available from Google Translate and similar services so if some clients are still willing to pay for our versions, there are probably other factors involved, such as quality and service.
Giles Watson wrote:
Translators can choose to ignore badly paid jobs because there are always other clients available. Sweat shop operatives go to work because they have no other option.
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Many don't ignore them because they rather sit in front of a computer than do something less dignified or indeed do not find other clients. But they are still exploited.
No one is forcing these "translators" to remain at their computers. If they insist on translating, they are evidently going to have to improve their skills at marketing (among other things). Luckily, this is a competence that most people can acquire fairly easily and there is plenty of good advice on how to go about it here on Proz.
One suggestion that has been made many, many times is simply to ignore the bottom-feeders.
Giles
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 03:11
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Listen up closely! | Jan 29, 2012 |
The core reason for the lowball offers on the Jobs Board is that this site has decided that it is in its best interests to foster matching at the low end of the profession. Even more fundamentally, this site actively encourages persons who are rank amateurs (and who have no commitment to becoming professionals) to join and continue to pay for membership, thus providing them a platform to both crowdsource their work and present themselves (to the unwary) as full-fledged members of the guild.
... See more The core reason for the lowball offers on the Jobs Board is that this site has decided that it is in its best interests to foster matching at the low end of the profession. Even more fundamentally, this site actively encourages persons who are rank amateurs (and who have no commitment to becoming professionals) to join and continue to pay for membership, thus providing them a platform to both crowdsource their work and present themselves (to the unwary) as full-fledged members of the guild.
The fact that this group of wretches is targeted (most likely with a great deal of success) by the heaviest advertisers on proz.com (i.e., the marketers of CAT programs), who hold out the promise of a royal road to professional freelance viability, completes the picture.
So in the end, I fear, all the handwringing and kvetching is indeed a waste of time. It is like calling for gyms to forbid the purchase of memberships by fat people who have no real commitment to getting in shape. Ain't gonna happen.... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Simon Bruni
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:11
Member (2009)
Spanish to English
TOPIC STARTER | Freedom of speech | Jan 29, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Simon Bruni wrote:
If our esteemed colleagues at Proz.com are unwilling or (for whatever reason) unable to do anything about this practice... You're right, this topic has been discussed to death, but 90% of those who post messages about it do nothing more than complain about it (as one would complain about the weather). Do you think that there is a solution or solutions to this problem? If so, share it with us. [Edited at 2012-01-29 13:17 GMT]
Complaining is doing something about it. It raises awareness, which is probably the only semi-solution that there is. Better to do something than nothing at all I'd say.
| | | | opolt
Germany
Local time: 09:11
English to German
+ ...
| @Robert / Re Crowdsourcing | Jan 29, 2012 |
Robert, I basically agree with most of your points. I must say, after one and a half year of ProZ membership, I'm quite shocked at the "professionalism" and "ethics" of the majority of the users on this site (sorry guys and gals, but that's just what I think -- and no, I'm not referring to any one of the posters in this thread in particular; after all, those contributing to the forums tend to be more on the professional side, most ProZ members can't be bothered to participate in the forums anywa... See more Robert, I basically agree with most of your points. I must say, after one and a half year of ProZ membership, I'm quite shocked at the "professionalism" and "ethics" of the majority of the users on this site (sorry guys and gals, but that's just what I think -- and no, I'm not referring to any one of the posters in this thread in particular; after all, those contributing to the forums tend to be more on the professional side, most ProZ members can't be bothered to participate in the forums anyway); it's become clear to me that ProZ is actively attracting this kind of people through its policies. At the very minimum, one can't help getting the impression that ProZ favours quantity over quality.
It is my opinion that unless ProZ is willing to change these policies and to promote higher standards, the discussion of low rates, KudoZ abuse and sheer amateurism is, for all intents and purposes, futile. That's the main reason I normally refrain from participating in such discussions: as long we have to focus on bare survival, basic entry level questions, or terminology queries which can be looked up in any decent paper dictionary, etc., we can't discuss the real issues of the profession. And there are many of these. In that sense, I'm seeing a lot of negative energy floating around here. Another thing is that all the factors mentioned above seem to create a feedback mechanism through which ProZ is turning into some kind of crowdsourcing effort. I told them so in one of their surveys. The irony is of course that ProZ would abolish itself, if that model should prevail.
But ProZ seems to have made the decision that this is how they want to be, and that's their decision as a business. They could even point to the community: aren't there many, many individuals out there who are actively supporting this model through their behaviour?
(Just to be clear, I don't want to imply that beginners shouldn't be welcome. We were all beginners at some point. But frankly, they shouldn't be setting the bar.)
So I feel like I'm part of a minority. That's ok. Right now the site continues to be useful to me, to a degree. But I had to quickly learn to be very discerning in my activities, like KudoZ answers, bidding, BB, glossaries, and all the rest. I guess it all boils down to taking ProZ for what it really is. ▲ Collapse
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ACOZ (X)
Australia
Local time: 16:41
French to English
| "Educating" translators | Jan 30, 2012 |
Many years ago, at a meeting for freelance translators in the French region where I lived at the time, somebody took to task an English colleague newly arrived in France who was charging 150 francs/page at a time when the going rate was nearer 200. He, was, it was pointed out, cheapening the market by seriously undercutting his colleagues. His answer was, "I'd rather have problems with you lot than with my bank manager". In other words, he wanted to ensure a steady income stream and undercutting... See more Many years ago, at a meeting for freelance translators in the French region where I lived at the time, somebody took to task an English colleague newly arrived in France who was charging 150 francs/page at a time when the going rate was nearer 200. He, was, it was pointed out, cheapening the market by seriously undercutting his colleagues. His answer was, "I'd rather have problems with you lot than with my bank manager". In other words, he wanted to ensure a steady income stream and undercutting was his way of doing it.
Yes, it was unfair to the rest of us. Yes, he was arrogant about it. And yes, we all felt cheated and sickened (especially when I saw a post card for the Tall Ships at Saint-Malo translated as "big boats"!!!). But such is life. Cheapskates have always been around and always will be. The only hope for the rest of us is that clients will learn from their mistakes and not make them again. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 03:11
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Comment on a couple of Opolt's points | Jan 30, 2012 |
Opolt wrote:
(Just to be clear, I don't want to imply that beginners shouldn't be welcome. We were all beginners at some point. But frankly, they shouldn't be setting the bar.)
___
Yes indeed. Nothing wrong with beginners, but there is something wrong with a site supposedly geared toward professionals, and yet where it is the beginners who feel more at home. In any worthy profession or trade, it is natural for a beginner to be acutely aware of his beginner ... See more Opolt wrote:
(Just to be clear, I don't want to imply that beginners shouldn't be welcome. We were all beginners at some point. But frankly, they shouldn't be setting the bar.)
___
Yes indeed. Nothing wrong with beginners, but there is something wrong with a site supposedly geared toward professionals, and yet where it is the beginners who feel more at home. In any worthy profession or trade, it is natural for a beginner to be acutely aware of his beginner status, and to strive mightily to overcome it so as to be considered a full-fledged member of the guild.
In addition, there is a big difference between a beginner who does thus strive and a beginner who has no commitment whatsoever to his profession, and who even acts in ways as to make a mockery of it....
*******
Opolt wrote:
So I feel like I'm part of a minority. That's ok. Right now the site continues to be useful to me, to a degree. But I had to quickly learn to be very discerning in my activities, like KudoZ answers, bidding, BB, glossaries, and all the rest. I guess it all boils down to taking ProZ for what it really is.
___
I couldn't agree more. I continue to pay for membership on this site because it offers me more advantages than disadvantages (and also, frankly, because--at least as of now--it has no competition that more closely meets my needs). But this doesn't mean that I don't clearly see certain problems with its approach, and that I am not open to alternative approaches that might eventually present themselves.... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 15:11
Chinese to English
| What Proz offers | Jan 30, 2012 |
Re: Opolt and Robert -
One of the main things Proz offers me is a forum where most threads are chat among professionals at a decent level. If that situation changes, Prozing would become a very dreary activity indeed. Please maintain a visible presence!
I do agree that Proz could do more for established translators. There's a very strong focus on selling educational products - not that there's anything wrong with ongoing professional development, but the core of the educatio... See more Re: Opolt and Robert -
One of the main things Proz offers me is a forum where most threads are chat among professionals at a decent level. If that situation changes, Prozing would become a very dreary activity indeed. Please maintain a visible presence!
I do agree that Proz could do more for established translators. There's a very strong focus on selling educational products - not that there's anything wrong with ongoing professional development, but the core of the education market is those just starting out. I've never been to a powwow, so I don't know if they work better for established translators. I'll have a think about what other options I might wish for.
But interaction with other professionals is the key. The forums seem reasonably well-moderated at the moment, and that helps, I think. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 02:11
Greek to English
+ ...
| Elementary School | Jan 30, 2012 |
If proz was just a website with translators' information for advertising purposes, it would be like the Yellow Pages (with extended profiles per member and contact info).
However, proz is an job auction site (such as ebay) or a "best offers" site such as Priceline.com, it means that it is a site, by definition, in which outsourcers will try to find the best (lowest) possible price. That's it's primary function. Other functions are secondary or coincidental.
... See more If proz was just a website with translators' information for advertising purposes, it would be like the Yellow Pages (with extended profiles per member and contact info).
However, proz is an job auction site (such as ebay) or a "best offers" site such as Priceline.com, it means that it is a site, by definition, in which outsourcers will try to find the best (lowest) possible price. That's it's primary function. Other functions are secondary or coincidental.
That is why the outsourcer makes the first step by throwing in a "price offer" or by asking for quotes.
It's main purpose is to function as a bidding site (for the lowest price of course) (if it was an advertising site, outsourcers would not be able to post jobs and receive competitive quotes. They would have to contact the translators directly and ask for quotes).
I do not bid on jobs here. I can't bid against "invisible" target rates (proz is an auction in which you never know what prices the others are giving, so you have no idea what to propose to "get" the job - it's a shot in the dark, a price casino). Even in a silent auction you know what the previous person bids - here you don't, so it has no business value for me. Walmart always informs its suppliers about the prices of other suppliers, to make them compete with each other - proz doesn't.
I pay a subscription here to have access to the Blue Board - there's no other Blue Board in the industry. Also, to occasionally read in the forums our desperate assumptions that this site is a "community" - that's how lonely we are in this occupation... or to realize, day after day, how inexperienced in the most basic market shops translators are... they see a bidding site for discounts, and they think it's a community... ▲ Collapse
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Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 02:11
Greek to English
+ ...
| ... and a response to a concern... | Jan 30, 2012 |
"The site actually creates a market for extremely low-paid work which would otherwise not exist."
It did exist in the past, before proz, but the outsourcers needed to spend a lot more time - there was no site in which to post jobs and get quotes from hundreds of people. Truth is that translations are not made in China, therefore their prices would go up. They are not. Because another truth is that most translators are part timers, supported by parents or spouses mainly and th... See more "The site actually creates a market for extremely low-paid work which would otherwise not exist."
It did exist in the past, before proz, but the outsourcers needed to spend a lot more time - there was no site in which to post jobs and get quotes from hundreds of people. Truth is that translations are not made in China, therefore their prices would go up. They are not. Because another truth is that most translators are part timers, supported by parents or spouses mainly and they don't care about prices - for most (check out the average age of translator in your language pair), prices would not affect their living standards.
If it wasn't for proz, it would be someone else, sooner or later. At any rate, demand is up, and prices are down (!) - funny ah? reverse economics - only in the translation field from all other fields in our little blue world of this solar system. So yes, proz gave the platform for this, by providing a solution to outsourcers for aggressive price reductions. Prior to proz prices were higher, and I'm not even talking about inflation.
But it would have happened at some point in time, one way or the other. What's the defense? Educate the translators. Tell them that the proz rate calculator is the certain path to bankruptcy (and they still won't care - more than 90% are part timers or provide some additional income, most are not the primary income earners).
What do we work for, in this boring and lonesome job? To earn an income. What is the sole compensation and reward? The price per word. Do we get any other benefits? No. Therefore, what is the function of sites with a primary purpose to provide discount avenues to outsourcers? To reduce our only income and reward from our occupation.
Need analysis? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 02:11
Greek to English
+ ...
| "in Romania..." | Jan 30, 2012 |
"In Romania, for instance, I am usually paid by page and not by word - a practice I rarely find helpful, but rather controversial."
Let me repeat what I was saying about Greece ten years ago, nobody believed me and now they are face to face with the reality I was warning them about:
Within the next five years, the cost of living either before or after the very high taxes and much higher prices for basic goods and energy throughout the European Continent will be 2... See more "In Romania, for instance, I am usually paid by page and not by word - a practice I rarely find helpful, but rather controversial."
Let me repeat what I was saying about Greece ten years ago, nobody believed me and now they are face to face with the reality I was warning them about:
Within the next five years, the cost of living either before or after the very high taxes and much higher prices for basic goods and energy throughout the European Continent will be 2.5 times what it is today. And you won't be able to raise your rates by that factor (250%). And your social safety net, throughout Europe, will be reduced. It's already happening. There's no money left, there's no other way.
I said that about Greece 9-10 years ago. It proved to be true within an horizon of 10 years - there was no other way, everyone in the financial community knew it. The cost of living in Greece right now, in terms of food and energy, is approximately 10-15% higher than in the nice northern suburbs of Chicago (in Euros or in dollars, either way).
Deal with that... the "inexperienced translators" will be experienced in 5 years. At what rates? How are they going to raise them?
(yes, I know, it's Romania, they don't care either way... "something is better than nothing" (what a pathetic attitude we have), and that's the prevailing attitude in this "community")
Meanwhile, agencies have kept their rates stable and high. Agencies do not give discounts to their clients if the translator is inexperienced. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 02:11
Greek to English
+ ...
| To prove, once and for all, that this is not a business. | Jan 30, 2012 |
Then, my dear Romanian friend (and all the rest of you), could you please explain to me how you guys have reached the rate of "2 cents" or "1 cent" or "3 cents"?
I would like to know what business calculations you used to determine it. Why not "6 cents" for example? Why not 4.12 cents? Why not 2.75 cents per word? Why not 3.62 cents? Who determined it?
What kind of cost analysis did you make? Viability analysis? Profit analysis? Expansion (new equip, education) a... See more Then, my dear Romanian friend (and all the rest of you), could you please explain to me how you guys have reached the rate of "2 cents" or "1 cent" or "3 cents"?
I would like to know what business calculations you used to determine it. Why not "6 cents" for example? Why not 4.12 cents? Why not 2.75 cents per word? Why not 3.62 cents? Who determined it?
What kind of cost analysis did you make? Viability analysis? Profit analysis? Expansion (new equip, education) analysis? Loss absorption analysis? Reserves? (and those are just the most basic - even a landscaper uses more indicators).
My point is not to be hostile. My point is to prove, once and for all, that the vast majority in this field are not business people and are not running a business. They are just hired labor, they have zero (0) control of the project parameters (deadline, price, format, etc), and the prices are 100% determined by a project manager each and every time.
At the end, can you sell your business, even after 20 years? Nope. Because it's not a business. You have nothing to sell - on a daily basis you sell only your time (your life) and your future. Your one (1) and only future. So, what's the price again? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 09:11
Italian to English
In memoriam | How markets work | Jan 30, 2012 |
ACOZ wrote:
The only hope for the rest of us is that clients will learn from their mistakes and not make them again.
It's not generally a zero-sum game, ACOZ, and it certainly isn't in postcards.
Lower production costs are likely to tempt new postcard makers into the market and if the cheaper translations are also lower in quality, then they create - for competent translators - the opportunity to charge more than 200 francs for a service which will then be in greater demand.
The cost of the most expensive postcards will go up but many people will buy them anyway because they will be better produced. You only have to look at card shops nowadays. The range of choice is vast compared to the cheap and cheerful postcards that were available when I was a lad. BTW you can still get the cheap and cheerful cards but they often aren't that cheap any more because their "vintage" look has given them added value 
Finally, if your English friend was (or subsequently became) any good, he would get too much work anyway and tend to raise his rates to scare off the bottom feeders.
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Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Sorry, but a job for EUR 0.02/word posted on an American site is not a fair deal. very far from it. It's an extreme insult.
Proz.com is an American site? Since when?
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 02:11
Greek to English
+ ...
| "American ????" | Jan 30, 2012 |
- So, Lefteris, why are you saying that these former Soviet countries will always be poor?
- Because they price themselves on the basis of only necessities - not profit. They will always be poor because to be poor (to have only the basic necessities) is their actual goal.
- Can you prove it?
- Sure, read this: "such rates might prove superior to what they actually earn in their countries of origin"
It means that although they can get ... See more - So, Lefteris, why are you saying that these former Soviet countries will always be poor?
- Because they price themselves on the basis of only necessities - not profit. They will always be poor because to be poor (to have only the basic necessities) is their actual goal.
- Can you prove it?
- Sure, read this: "such rates might prove superior to what they actually earn in their countries of origin"
It means that although they can get American rates, they prefer the Romanian rates. Such prices say "I want to remain poor"
- How can they get American rates?
- This job is done over the internet - it doesn't matter where you physically live. Should I reduce my rates if I move to a third world country for three weeks? Of course not. The only thing that you need to do is to remove your address information from your profile. Or tell the agencies that they should not be basing their rates on my residence (it's none of their business where I chose to live).
- What drives the rates in a free lance business with services that other countries such as China cannot provide?
- Ambition and high income goals. Also, how much you value your self and your work.
- Are these factors strong in the translators' community?
- No. They are among the weakest from all industries. Personally, I have not seen any other freelance industry in this world with weaker income goals than the translators community after 2005-2006. These people do not know that 15 years ago we were making 12-14 cents per word standard rate - and the agencies were making more money too.
- Can the translators in these countries raise their rates?
- They do not want to. They do not want to become America. They want America to become like them -- they are not business people, they only calculate their basic needs. But there's a big and nasty surprise coming their way: Asia will rob their competitive advantages in all commodity-based industries and consumer/energy prices will skyrocket.
Just look at the Baltic Dry Index and see where freight contract prices are - the Chinese are transporting goods at almost zero transportation cost !!!
Greece and its high cost of living is just the beginning - a preview of things to come for the rest of them. Translators there will be caught off guard, and won't be able to raise their rates to cope with it, because nobody speaks on their behalf. They will be poor - and with such rates, they' ll stay poor when the cost of living doubles. Don't look far - wait until the end of 2012 to see the first signs of the "new energy prices and taxes" throughout the old continent. Very few countries will beneft (the recipients of the foreign factories) - but these will be the ones with the superior infrastracture - not the ones with the cheapest labor. Because high education/specialization of workers and high quality from superior infrastructure will be the only point against Asia - you can't compete with the Asians on prices. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Guild or Industry | Jan 30, 2012 |
the term guild was mentioned several times in this forum. It looks like many translators would love to be part of something like a translators guild.
The Wikipedia describes the guilds very nicely, and a lot in this article reminds me of the discussion going on here and elsewhere:
"A guild (German: Gilde) is an association of craftsmen in a particular trade. The earliest types of guild were formed as cofraternities of workers. They were organized in a manner something between a trade... See more the term guild was mentioned several times in this forum. It looks like many translators would love to be part of something like a translators guild.
The Wikipedia describes the guilds very nicely, and a lot in this article reminds me of the discussion going on here and elsewhere:
"A guild (German: Gilde) is an association of craftsmen in a particular trade. The earliest types of guild were formed as cofraternities of workers. They were organized in a manner something between a trade union, a cartel, and a secret society."
I specially do love the part further down in the Wikipedia article:
"Fall of the guilds
As Ogilvie (2004) argues, the guilds negatively affected quality, skills, and innovation. Through what economists now call "rent-seeking" they imposed deadweight losses on the economy. Ogilvie says they generated no demonstrable positive externalities and notes that industry began to flourish only after the guilds faded away. Guilds persisted over the centuries because they redistributed resources to politically powerful merchants. On the other hand, Ogilvie agrees, guilds created "social capital" of shared norms, common information, mutual sanctions, and collective political action. This social capital benefited guild members, even as they hurt outsiders.
The guild system became a target of much criticism towards the end of the 18th century and the beginning of the 19th century. They were believed to oppose free trade and hinder technological innovation, technology transfer and business development. According to several accounts of this time, guilds became increasingly involved in simple territorial struggles against each other and against free practitioners of their arts.
Two of the most outspoken critics of the guild system were Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Adam Smith, and all over Europe a tendency to oppose government control over trades in favor of laissez-faire free market systems was growing rapidly and making its way into the political and legal system. The Le Chapelier Law of 1791 abolished the guilds in France, which it called corporations, according to Fernand Braudel.[15] Smith wrote in The Wealth of Nations (Book I, Chapter X, paragraph 72):
It is to prevent this reduction of price, and consequently of wages and profit, by restraining that free competition which would most certainly occasion it, that all corporations, and the greater part of corporation laws, have been established. (...) and when any particular class of artificers or traders thought proper to act as a corporation without a charter, such adulterine guilds, as they were called, were not always disfranchised upon that account, but obliged to fine annually to the king for permission to exercise their usurped privileges.
Karl Marx in his Communist Manifesto also criticized the guild system for its rigid gradation of social rank and the relation of oppressor/oppressed entailed by this system. From this time comes the low regard in which some people hold the guilds to this day. In part due to their own inability to control unruly corporate behavior, the tide turned against the guilds.
Because of industrialization and modernization of the trade and industry, and the rise of powerful nation-states that could directly issue patent and copyright protections — often revealing the trade secrets — the guilds' power faded. After the French Revolution they fell in most European nations through the 19th century, as the guild system was disbanded and replaced by free trade laws. By that time, many former handicraft workers had been forced to seek employment in the emerging manufacturing industries, using not closely guarded techniques but standardized methods controlled by corporations."
I am relatively happy that translating is changing from a guild-like to a more industrial character and I am sure that this development won't stop. ▲ Collapse
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