| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Off topic: British offended by Americanisms Thread poster: Amy Duncan (X)
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neilmac
Spain
Local time: 10:43
Spanish to English
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| Storm in a mug of latte | Jul 21, 2011 |
Since I am quite open to the use of many of the terms cited in the article, I find some of the reactions quite funny, though at the same time somewhat pathetic. Brits are notoriously chauvinistic about what is right and wrong linguistically and often extremely judgemental without first examing the plank in their own collective eye. Coming from the west of Scotland where there is historically quite a strong American influence on the language, I have experienced this myself on many occasions.
... See more Since I am quite open to the use of many of the terms cited in the article, I find some of the reactions quite funny, though at the same time somewhat pathetic. Brits are notoriously chauvinistic about what is right and wrong linguistically and often extremely judgemental without first examing the plank in their own collective eye. Coming from the west of Scotland where there is historically quite a strong American influence on the language, I have experienced this myself on many occasions.
Quite often the irritation is down to (sorry, based on!) sheer ignorance, for example of the fact that "gotten" (got) and "dove" (dived) are archaic forms which survived in the New World.
Sometimes I think it would be better for everyone concerned if we could just stop being "whingeing poms" and get to grips with more important issues than "I'm good" or "Pippa's bum"...
[Edited at 2011-07-21 09:37 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Angela Dickson (X) 
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:43
French to English
+ ...
neilmac wrote:
don't get me started on "foetus"...
As I'm sure you know, both spellings exist, and "foetus" is associated with British spelling. However, if we want spelling to reflect etymology (which is a moot point, but let's assume we do), "fetus" is the correct version, wherever you live.
http://www.bmj.com/content/315/7102/0.9.full
I'm not going to read the article or comments, because I fear the inevitable ignorance on display will make me angry.
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Michael Grant wrote:
Jennifer Hudson’s new song(released off of her new album) is called Where’s it at?...And, YES, I have to agree with Adam in London, it is irritating because it makes the person saying it sound like a complete dimwit!
UGH!!
I have to agree as well. It's not so much an americanism as incorrect grammar that became a conerstone of inner-city (where I grew up) slang in the U.S. I remember being insanely annoyed at an R&B girl group in the nineties who had a single called "where my girls at?"
In fact I'm getting angry now just thinking about it. And don't get me started on Destiny's Child lyrics (notorious!)
| | | | Amy Duncan (X)
Brazil
Local time: 05:43
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER | "That will learn you" | Jul 21, 2011 |
Or rather, "that'll learn ya." My mother used to say this a lot, but always in a joking way. Our background is Scottish and English, but my relatives came to the U.S. several generations ago.
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nmfurla (X)
Local time: 10:43
Italian to English
| Incorrect grammar indeed | Jul 21, 2011 |
Roy Williams wrote: Michael Grant wrote:
Jennifer Hudson’s new song(released off of her new album) is called Where’s it at?...And, YES, I have to agree with Adam in London, it is irritating because it makes the person saying it sound like a complete dimwit!
UGH!! I have to agree as well. It's not so much an americanism as incorrect grammar that became a conerstone of inner-city (where I grew up) slang in the U.S. I remember being insanely annoyed at an R&B girl group in the nineties who had a single called "where my girls at?" In fact I'm getting angry now just thinking about it. And don't get me started on Destiny's Child lyrics (notorious!)
I agree that many of the "Americanisms" can be explained as simply ignorance of English grammar. However, it is also true that some expressions are simply English dating back to a few hundred years ago.
'nuff said!
| | | | Neil Coffey
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:43
French to English
+ ...
| "Incorrect grammar"?? | Jul 21, 2011 |
Mfurla wrote:
I agree that many of the "Americanisms" can be explained as simply ignorance of English grammar. However, it is also true that some expressions are simply English dating back to a few hundred years ago.
These sound like sweeping, unfounded generalisations: I would be interested to see them substantiated.
I'm also not clear why "Where's it at?" is being labelled as "incorrect grammar". As far as I can see, grammatically speaking, it's a perfectly normally formed question (which just happens to have an idiomatic interpretation, but so what... so do lots of other utterances).
[Edited at 2011-07-21 18:19 GMT]
| | | | Rachel Fell
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:43
French to English
+ ...
Neil Coffey wrote: Mfurla wrote:
I agree that many of the "Americanisms" can be explained as simply ignorance of English grammar. However, it is also true that some expressions are simply English dating back to a few hundred years ago.
These sound like sweeping, unfounded generalisations: I would be interested to see them substantiated. I'm also not clear why "Where's it at?" is being labelled as "incorrect grammar". As far as I can see, grammatically speaking, it's a perfectly normally formed question (which just happens to have an idiomatic interpretation, but so what... so do lots of other utterances). [Edited at 2011-07-21 18:19 GMT]
[nodding smiley]
| | | | opolt
Germany
Local time: 10:43
English to German
+ ...
| Here we go again :-] | Jul 21, 2011 |
This topic just refuses to die :-]. I vividly remember an angry discussion between Americans and Brits many, many years ago in Compuserve's FLEFO, after someone had quoted an article where some British scientists were claiming that there was a serious need for "British quality terminology" in scientific papers, etc.
As a native German, I can't really judge on this -- though some of those complaints on the BCC page sound a bit uninformed to me -- maybe I'm wrong.
OTOH I... See more This topic just refuses to die :-]. I vividly remember an angry discussion between Americans and Brits many, many years ago in Compuserve's FLEFO, after someone had quoted an article where some British scientists were claiming that there was a serious need for "British quality terminology" in scientific papers, etc.
As a native German, I can't really judge on this -- though some of those complaints on the BCC page sound a bit uninformed to me -- maybe I'm wrong.
OTOH I guess it's even more annoying for these tergiversations to be uttered by foreigners trying to sound native in a British context. No, I'm not saying I'm innocent in that regard :-]
No 7 struck me: "It is what it is." Americanism? Not sure -- there are similar phrases even in German. But doesn't it sound like a helpless attempt at profundity? I would think so, at least in some situations. What it reminds me of is Donald Rumsfeld who, in a less than comfortable situation, said: "We are where we are." Translation: "It's a big snafu, but did you really think I was going to apologize?".
At any rate, where are the Americans complaining about the subversive influence of (modern) British English? There must be a decent amount of it -- maybe unnoticed -- from pop music, reading the BBC online, or maybe even creeping across the long northern border in dark winter nights(?).
One thing is for sure, the situation is much worse in the Spanish-speaking countries ;-]
[Edited at 2011-07-21 22:36 GMT]
[Edited at 2011-07-21 22:38 GMT]
[Edited at 2011-07-21 22:42 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Parrot
Spain
Local time: 10:43
Spanish to English
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opolt wrote:
One thing is for sure, the situation is much worse in the Spanish-speaking countries ;-]
Don't get ME started. I live with Castilians now, but my earliest Spanish reading (abroad, in an English-speaking society and during the late Franco era) was Mexican. I loved the music, associated as it also was with a doting grandmother. Plus, the literature was nice. So now when I get rapped for "Americanisms" (from the Spanish side), I can't help thinking they could've exported better reading than Corín Tellado to learn the language by when I was younger. And if my male English-speaking cousins don't speak Spanish now, it's because they wouldn't have been caught dead with one of those rose-coloured potboilers.
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 01:43
English to German
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In memoriam
"3. The phrase I've watched seep into the language (especially with broadcasters) is "two-time" and "three-time". Have the words double, triple etc, been totally lost? Grammatically it makes no sense, and is even worse when spoken. My pulse rises every time I hear or see it. Which is not healthy as it's almost every day now. Argh! D Rochelle, Bath"
Ahem. "Two-time" and "double" are not interchangeable. A two-time Olympic Gold medallist is hardly the same as a double Olympic Gold med... See more "3. The phrase I've watched seep into the language (especially with broadcasters) is "two-time" and "three-time". Have the words double, triple etc, been totally lost? Grammatically it makes no sense, and is even worse when spoken. My pulse rises every time I hear or see it. Which is not healthy as it's almost every day now. Argh! D Rochelle, Bath"
Ahem. "Two-time" and "double" are not interchangeable. A two-time Olympic Gold medallist is hardly the same as a double Olympic Gold medallist...  ▲ Collapse
| | | | Allison Wright (X)
Portugal
Local time: 09:43
| neilmac
Spain
Local time: 10:43
Spanish to English
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| As the man with the wooden leg said: | Jul 22, 2011 |
[quote]Angela Dickson wrote:
... it's a matter of opinion.
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neilmac
Spain
Local time: 10:43
Spanish to English
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... to my posting yesterday, which may have come across as curmudgeonly.
Basically, my stance is that we should be grateful for the immense variety and wealth of the many variants of English, whatever your definition of "standard" or "good" English may happen to be. When someone says "I'm good", we know what they mean. An Irish person might say "I'm grand" to the same effect, yet is unlikely to garner similar opprobium.
And whether you choose to use foetus or fetus, as long ... See more ... to my posting yesterday, which may have come across as curmudgeonly.
Basically, my stance is that we should be grateful for the immense variety and wealth of the many variants of English, whatever your definition of "standard" or "good" English may happen to be. When someone says "I'm good", we know what they mean. An Irish person might say "I'm grand" to the same effect, yet is unlikely to garner similar opprobium.
And whether you choose to use foetus or fetus, as long as you and your clients are happy, then what's the problem?
Of course, there are always some who take offence at beginning a sentence with "And", or spelling offence with a "c", or ending up in the dreaded three dots... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 10:43
French to English
| another "where it's at" joke for you ;-) | Jul 22, 2011 |
Hello everybody,
First time I've ever posted although I have been reading you for a while now
I love this forum!
Suzan Hamer wrote:
One of my favorite scenes from "Everybody Loves Raymond" (wish I could find a youtube video; words just don't do justice to Marie's horror at her son's [ab]use of English):
Ray: Reading all those sports books and watching those sports on TV, that’s how I got to be where I’m at.
Marie: (long pause) “That’s how I got to be where I’m at?”
Ray: Yeah.
Marie: You’re a writer, and that’s how you use the English language?
Ray: Yeah, what? What did I do?
Marie: You never end a sentence with the word “at!”
Ray: Okay, okay. Big deal, so I ended a sentence with a proposition.
Marie: Preposition! It’s a preposition—oh my God!
[Edited at 2011-07-21 12:16 GMT]
If I may contribute... I first heard the joke below as a a conversation as an African American talking with a WASP at Harvard:
AA - Excuse me, could you tell me where the library'd be at?
WASP - (snooty yet shocked) Excuse me, did you not know that at Harvard we never put a preposition at the end of a question?
AA - (sigh) OK. I'll start over. Excuse me, could you tell me where the library'd be at, asshole?
| | | | | Where's is at | Jul 22, 2011 |
Neil Coffey wrote: Mfurla wrote:
I agree that many of the "Americanisms" can be explained as simply ignorance of English grammar. However, it is also true that some expressions are simply English dating back to a few hundred years ago.
These sound like sweeping, unfounded generalisations: I would be interested to see them substantiated. I'm also not clear why "Where's it at?" is being labelled as "incorrect grammar". As far as I can see, grammatically speaking, it's a perfectly normally formed question (which just happens to have an idiomatic interpretation, but so what... so do lots of other utterances). [Edited at 2011-07-21 18:19 GMT]
When we learned english in school, the "Where's it at?" construction was always deemed incorrect. And any time my wife asks be to get something whose location I don't know, I always ask "Where is it?"
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