| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | how to translate poetry in SDL Studio 2009 Thread poster: Verónica Ortega
|
|---|
apk12 
Germany
Local time: 15:10
English to German
+ ...
| OT or OT? On or Off topic? And how to distinguish OT from OT? | Jun 10, 2011 |
opolt wrote:
Of course people should be allowed to position themselves! The only thing, it was all OT.
Erm, what? Positioning their view, maybe even hinting at the reasons for it - at the reasons for their view whether they regard CAT as helpful or not for poetry translation - is OT in a thread about using CAT for poetry translation?
Care to explain?
Positioning - their view - presenting it as participation in a debate - is someting else than (self)-presentation.
(Btw thanks for editing the "storm" sentence --- edited mine, too, now. Now I don't need to search for an umbrella anymore for today, feels much better )
So, ok, back to the topic:
Giles Watson wrote:
Hi opolt,
If we're going to be conservative about this, why not go the whole hog? Let's get rid of pens and paper!
...
Gilt, why not getting serious about clever marketing strategies, Viral Licence Client Relations related dicussions in professional forums, and why then not simply take the next step and translate Shakepeare's Sonnets on a croudourced platform with cloud TM management? First for 0.04 (then we can tell the client, the translators were extremely professional), then for 0.02 (clients anyway can't tell the difference), last ones will go for free. (Not for free for the client, but, well - croudsourced. Partly as test contributions, and some of them will even maybe do more for free, they love that. They love fuzzy discounts, so why not - as you expressed that - "go the whole hog" - with discounts? Work for free is anyway right now quite a hot tip in the industry. So let's go TM Shakespeare. I think, I have a perfect TM contributor for this. Do you think the "Gürtel" translator will do it?
[Edited at 2011-06-10 19:51 GMT]
| | | | opolt
Germany
Local time: 15:10
English to German
+ ...
apk12 wrote: opolt wrote:
Of course people should be allowed to position themselves! The only thing, it was all OT.
Erm, what? Positioning their view, maybe even hinting at the reasons for it - at the reasons for their view whether they regard CAT as helpful or not for poetry translation - is OT in a thread about usage CAT for poetry translation? Care to explain? Positioning - their view - presenting it as participation in a debate - is someting else than (self)-presentation.
With "off topic", I'm referring to this being a support forum for a software product, and Verónicas question mainly being related to a technical aspect.
Nothing against a healthy argument about the topic -- but maybe in another thread. That's all.
| | | | apk12
Germany
Local time: 15:10
English to German
+ ...
| Maybe we do have time for that... | Jun 10, 2011 |
opolt wrote:
...
Nothing against a healthy argument about the topic -- but maybe in another thread. That's all.
As soon as we see an interesting discussion thread where exactly this topic turns out to be proceeded, we of course can move there (with a link from here), but so far - there is so much place for chars here, the thread sticks to its topic and generally, even when you ask how exactly to use - let's say - a helicopter as an elevator, you might still wish to discuss how both work and ask why actually one would try to do that.
[Edited at 2011-06-10 16:26 GMT]
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 15:10
Italian to English
In memoriam | Haikus and Homer | Jun 10, 2011 |
apk12 wrote: So, ok, back to the topic: Giles Watson wrote:
Hi opolt,
If we're going to be conservative about this, why not go the whole hog? Let's get rid of pens and paper!
...
Gilt, why not getting serious about clever marketing strategies,
Hi apk12,
The topic is translation tools, not marketing.
My point, as I'm sure you have realised, is that the more tools you master (including pen and paper), the more ways you have to approach your texts. Selecting the right tools for each job is part of the translator's craft.
I admit to being a bit suspicious of the knee-jerk reaction that automatically rules out CATs for translating poetry or other literary texts. While in specific cases there may be compelling reasons for preferring other tools, there is no reason a priori why literature, including poetry, should not be translated with CAT technology. Haikus, for example, are already conveniently segment-sized and Homer, whom I sight-translated twice a week at grammar school for two years, is a jigsaw puzzle of formulaic expressions that cry out for predictive text or a concordance function. Do also bear in mind Paul's point that poetry can be a valuable addition to your translation memories, whether or not you use your CAT to do the actual translation.
And yes, we ought to talk about marketing strategies for literary translation, too. In my experience, clients tend to have depressingly low expectations about what they can get away with paying!
| | |
|
|
|
apk12
Germany
Local time: 15:10
English to German
+ ...
| Let's take the tractor | Jun 10, 2011 |
Giles Watson wrote:
My point, as I'm sure you have realised, is that the more tools you master (including pen and paper), the more ways you have to approach your texts. Selecting the right tools for each job is part of the translator's craft.
While my point, as I have reasons to assume that there are reasons to expect that you also had the chance to realize, is that when talking about choosing the right tool - still I am sceptical whether a tractor is helpful for picking orchids (no please don't say it's another topic, embed the tractor into the helicopter and you'll get what I mean). Or whether the question how perfectly segment-like a text is is reason enough to start perceiving texts in segments. How about totally letting this old dusty stuff like human language behind and starting to communicate in modern Simplified English, perfectly adjusted to the brave new modern need of
Prof. Dr. G. Oggle's memory, discounts, more discounts, and discounts? Complex grammar is anyway overrated and btw we really don't need t-h-a-t thick dictionaries, do we?
[Edited at 2011-06-11 01:13 GMT]
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 15:10
Italian to English
In memoriam | The part is not the whole | Jun 11, 2011 |
[quote]apk12 wrote:
Giles Watson wrote: While my point, as I have reasons to assume that there are reasons to expect that you also had the chance to realize, is that when talking about choosing the right tool - still I am sceptical whether a tractor is helpful for picking orchids (no please don't say it's another topic, embed the tractor into the helicopter and you'll get what I mean).
A tractor may not help you actually gather orchids but you can certainly take more of them home if you have one (mind where you park; orchids tend to grow on marshy ground!).
Second of all, a CAT tool is only one of the many tools available to the translator, who supplies the - one hopes, original - intellectual input and may choose not to use one on specific jobs. A CAT is also only part of the translation workflow. You're still going to have to read all of the text before you start, if only to decide what resources will be necessary, and read the translation outside the CAT environment afterwards, preferably out loud to fine-tune the prosody.
Or whether the question how perfectly segment-like a text is is reason enough to start perceiving texts in segments. How about totally letting this old dusty stuff like human language behind and starting to communicate in modern Simplified English, perfectly adjusted to the brave new modern need of Prof. Dr. G. Oggle's memory, discounts, more discounts, and discounts? Complex grammar is anyway overrated and btw we really don't need t-h-a-t thick dictionaries, do we?
This is a little "rant-y" I'll try to take your points one at a time.
1) I have already said that segmentation can blinker perception of the text; it's one of the downsides of working with CAT tools and one of the reasons for reading the text before importing it into the program.
2) Translators produce simplified English; CAT tools merely store it.
3) Sadly, a lot of translators use Google the way HL Menchen's drunk used the lamppost: more for support than illumination. They are bad translators.
4) Grammar or syntax? A CAT tool might perhaps be more of a hindrance than a help if you're dealing with the sentence structure of Henry James but I'd still want to align and import the translation into a TM.
5) Paper dictionaries and CAT tools are complementary. I use both, as I imagine most of us do.
6) You don't have to get rid of the old when something new comes along. Socrates' friend Theuth wouldn't have thrown out his stylus just because his new ThinkPad had arrived. He would have assessed the potential, limitations and costs of the new technology and worked out the best way to include it in his workflow for appropriate jobs.
7) I prefer not to give discounts.
| | | | | it's simply easier | Jun 11, 2011 |
I find that in most cases, using a cat tool is simply easier: you don't have to worry about the format, you can type freely but fore me the biggest advantage for any type of texts is that you have the text side-by-side so you don't have to look it up again when reviewing. Reread it again and again and you can check right there with the original. When overtyping, you can get lost and forget and when you review later you don't have the comparison, the original text right there at a click.
... See more I find that in most cases, using a cat tool is simply easier: you don't have to worry about the format, you can type freely but fore me the biggest advantage for any type of texts is that you have the text side-by-side so you don't have to look it up again when reviewing. Reread it again and again and you can check right there with the original. When overtyping, you can get lost and forget and when you review later you don't have the comparison, the original text right there at a click.
Good luck
Eileen ▲ Collapse
| | | | apk12
Germany
Local time: 15:10
English to German
+ ...
Giles Watson wrote:
...
2) Translators produce simplified English; CAT tools merely store it.
Forgotten about the tractor in the helicopter? So - not really.
Giles Watson wrote:
...
7) I prefer not to give discounts.
Wise decision, but indeed, a wise dream soon, because following the now modern business practices, you might prepare for even more. How about -> after first experiencing quite haywire licence-prices-daydreams -> starting getting used to discounts -> then -> getting used to discounts on discounts -> then, you're not a newbie anymore, so then the time has come for something real: time to slowly getting used to work for free, some - you know - some clever test translation participation croudsourcing with of course cloud based TM contribution-> and then, when you have reached this professional step -> preparing for paying for work. Then, only then, a translator is a real superpro translator. With an extermely promising business strategy. What, rates? For translation? Wake up, it works the other way round, didn't you notice? Start paying your clients, that's the deal of the day now!
[Edited at 2011-06-13 12:46 GMT]
| | |
|
|
|
#JuliaC#
Local time: 15:10
German to Italian
+ ...
| My own point of view: remember Wordsworth's process of writing poetry? | Jun 13, 2011 |
Well I think the same about translating poetry. You (I know some of you may think about me as an extremist) should be a poet, in order to translate poetry. CAT tools count repetitions? Is this really an advantage? Do I really need someone who tells me: you've already encountered "bliss of solitude"? I know it! Because I've thought about that a lot of time before translating it, and if I find it again, I surely will know what that means and if it necessary to change the translation or not. Poetry... See more Well I think the same about translating poetry. You (I know some of you may think about me as an extremist) should be a poet, in order to translate poetry. CAT tools count repetitions? Is this really an advantage? Do I really need someone who tells me: you've already encountered "bliss of solitude"? I know it! Because I've thought about that a lot of time before translating it, and if I find it again, I surely will know what that means and if it necessary to change the translation or not. Poetry creations (poetry itself, poetry teaching, poetry translating) deserve the passion and the creative attitude only a poet possesses. Sure, I do not mean to say it is not possible to use Trados to translate poetry, of course it is. But I really think a poem would be better translated if you use only your mind and creativity. ▲ Collapse
| | | | apk12
Germany
Local time: 15:10
English to German
+ ...
| That's what it's about. | Jun 13, 2011 |
giuliacordelli wrote:
...CAT tools count repetitions? Is this really an advantage? Do I really need someone who tells me: you've already encountered "bliss of solitude"? I know it! Because I've thought about that a lot of time before translating it, and if I find it again, I surely will know what that means and if it necessary to change the translation or not.
Exakt.
Erm, I mean: exactly.
I know there it was, can find it if needed. I know where it was if it indeed is gone in the meantime. But the more I am not reminded on "repetitions" and fuzzy anythings, the more I know faster than the application (the application that will anyway in a few minutes or hours lower down the "speed" it pretends to accelerate - hello! you cute new nice funny intereting bug report here you are...!) whether it fits or not - so, the less the application disturbs this brain process, the faster will a trained brain anyway have that 'revival' of an already translated term, sentence... and will independently decide whether it's really fitting into this context and in case it's a similar field: does this really fit into the nature, the style of the given text or not.
Regarding poets for translation of poetry: second that, absolutely. Think also of the target group: it will be poetry readers, they are sharp, critical readers, they might recognize a cloud based TM Sonnet (formerly Shakespeare) immediately.
[Edited at 2011-06-13 13:10 GMT]
| | | | #JuliaC#
Local time: 15:10
German to Italian
+ ...
I'm really happy someone still understands the real-great value of poetry.
As for Shakespeare translated by Trados.... what a nightmare!
The pleasure of poetry is to let it become part of yourself.
And I don't really understand people talking about overtyping (as regards poetry).
When you translate a poem, you CREATE something, you do not type anything.
If you're so tired and cannot type anymore, wait a minute and translate poetry... See more I'm really happy someone still understands the real-great value of poetry.
As for Shakespeare translated by Trados.... what a nightmare!
The pleasure of poetry is to let it become part of yourself.
And I don't really understand people talking about overtyping (as regards poetry).
When you translate a poem, you CREATE something, you do not type anything.
If you're so tired and cannot type anymore, wait a minute and translate poetry the next day, because it is not a mechanical process, you need inspiration and contentation! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I have to admit I blinked twice and re-read the title... | Jun 14, 2011 |
According to the French philosopher Derrida, the poetical is exactly the untranslatable part of language. Untranslatable because it isn’t connected just to the terminological meaning of words – but to their physical body. The visual impact of the word is important, its history, how it sounds and what other sounds it connects to in the language, sometimes take precedent. Derrida would say “Words refer to other words, not to things or thoughts".
Poetry is always pushing itself t... See more According to the French philosopher Derrida, the poetical is exactly the untranslatable part of language. Untranslatable because it isn’t connected just to the terminological meaning of words – but to their physical body. The visual impact of the word is important, its history, how it sounds and what other sounds it connects to in the language, sometimes take precedent. Derrida would say “Words refer to other words, not to things or thoughts".
Poetry is always pushing itself towards intranslatablility, and I have a very hard time seeing how Trados would be a tool that would help me in approaching this impossible pursuit. ▲ Collapse
| | |
|
|
|
jacana54 (X)
Uruguay
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Yes, I understand your using a CAT tool, but why Studio? | Jun 17, 2011 |
Verónica Ortega wrote:
I agree with Paul in that CAT tools can be used in literary translation to avoid repetition and retyping. It can also be useful to just be able to identify repetitions in the source text and maintain consistency, which is obviously crucial to a good translation. Contrary to what many people may think, literary texts can be repetitive sometimes, specially in terms of specific words or concepts. How many times does the word ennui appear in Baudelaire's Fleurs du mal, for exemple? I can assure you it's not just once or twice, and this word has at least three possible translations into Spanish, so as I said, CAT tools can help maintain consistency.
Thanks Tomás, Giles and Paul from SDL support for your valuable comments.
I fully agree with everything you say here, but why Studio which creates all those different files and folders and takes you outside Word?
I have translated a play using a CAT tool, for the same reasons you state, but using MetaTexis, so as not to lose all the useful possibilities of being in Word.
L
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2] | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » how to translate poetry in SDL Studio 2009 | Trados Studio 2022 Freelance | The leading translation software used by over 270,000 translators.
Designed with your feedback in mind, Trados Studio 2022 delivers an unrivalled, powerful desktop
and cloud solution, empowering you to work in the most efficient and cost-effective way.
More info » |
| | Anycount & Translation Office 3000 | Translation Office 3000
Translation Office 3000 is an advanced accounting tool for freelance translators and small agencies. TO3000 easily and seamlessly integrates with the business life of professional freelance translators.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
Translation news related to SDL Trados
