| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | how to translate poetry in SDL Studio 2009 Thread poster: Verónica Ortega
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Verónica Ortega 
Argentina
Local time: 20:24
Member (2008)
English to Spanish
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I'm trying to translate a song based on a XVIth. Century French sonnet, so it's written in alexandrine verse. How can I keep this format as I translate? The program divides the whole text into fragments as usual, but does not create a new line whenever I press ENTER.
| | | | opolt
Germany
Local time: 01:24
English to German
+ ...
| Just wondering | Jun 8, 2011 |
Excuse me, but why would one use a CAT tool for the translation of a poem? Isn't that a bit of overkill? Where is the benefit in doing so, given that poetry (almost by definition) should be non-repetitive? Even if you have a body of pretranslated works, it's difficult to see the advantage.
I'm not being ironic -- I really would like to know. Maybe it's just me, but in the case of poetry, I believe the simplest tool should do -- any editor or word processor, even a piece of paper and... See more Excuse me, but why would one use a CAT tool for the translation of a poem? Isn't that a bit of overkill? Where is the benefit in doing so, given that poetry (almost by definition) should be non-repetitive? Even if you have a body of pretranslated works, it's difficult to see the advantage.
I'm not being ironic -- I really would like to know. Maybe it's just me, but in the case of poetry, I believe the simplest tool should do -- any editor or word processor, even a piece of paper and a pen for a start. Personally I feel that anything else would get into the way.
(Sorry for getting slightly OT.) ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Overkilling poetry | Jun 9, 2011 |
I basically agree with the colleague: CAT tools and poetry don't mix.
Now, if the poem is in Alexandrine verses, don't you have the source poem already split in lines? This should create one segment in Studio for each of the verses, and you can translate each of the verses individually, right? How come this is not so?
Just make sure the original document has a line (ended with a paragraph mark) for each o... See more I basically agree with the colleague: CAT tools and poetry don't mix.
Now, if the poem is in Alexandrine verses, don't you have the source poem already split in lines? This should create one segment in Studio for each of the verses, and you can translate each of the verses individually, right? How come this is not so?
Just make sure the original document has a line (ended with a paragraph mark) for each of the verses, and translate that in Studio (or any CAT tool, for that matter). ▲ Collapse
| | | | apk12
Germany
Local time: 01:24
English to German
+ ...
Aaaand here we are.
opolt wrote:
Excuse me, but why would one use a CAT tool for the translation of a poem?
May I please join that question? Also interested in an answer.
Imagine: Shakespeare, Sonnett
"No, Time, thou shalt not boast that I do change:
Thy pyramids built up with newer might
To me ae nothing novel, nothing strange"
Fuzzy erm funny result:
"Magazin Time Nummer 25,4 µm, sollst könnte neuer:
Turkish Airlines erbauter Pyramiden mit dem neuerem Könnte,
Zu mir das Ä, keine Novelle, das Nichts, seltsam"
seltsam.
(I begin to love that topic...)
[Edited at 2011-06-09 04:56 GMT]
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Hi,
I am by no means qualified to comment on the finer points of translating poetry, but perhaps it's just as simple as being able to easily control your work as you go through the poem. Even if you don't use the TM for repetitions and such things you will still end up with your work saved in your TM and it may be useful for a repeat performance in the future, or if a quote from the poem pops up in another document.
Just a thought. I can't see the harm.
R... See more Hi,
I am by no means qualified to comment on the finer points of translating poetry, but perhaps it's just as simple as being able to easily control your work as you go through the poem. Even if you don't use the TM for repetitions and such things you will still end up with your work saved in your TM and it may be useful for a repeat performance in the future, or if a quote from the poem pops up in another document.
Just a thought. I can't see the harm.
Regards
Paul ▲ Collapse
| | | | Attila Piróth
France
Local time: 01:24
Member
English to Hungarian
+ ...
| Step-by-step guide to translating poetry with Studio 2009 | Jun 9, 2011 |
1. Get a book with the sonnet, which contains many other poems of the author - and his contemporaries. Read it - and read quite a lot of reference material in the source language only. If there exist some translations do not read them at this point.
2. Choose an inspiring moment: a long afternoon when you do not have to think of any other work. Choose a place where you feel good: a café terrace overlooking a vast and beautiful square with a magnificent building - or anything that ... See more 1. Get a book with the sonnet, which contains many other poems of the author - and his contemporaries. Read it - and read quite a lot of reference material in the source language only. If there exist some translations do not read them at this point.
2. Choose an inspiring moment: a long afternoon when you do not have to think of any other work. Choose a place where you feel good: a café terrace overlooking a vast and beautiful square with a magnificent building - or anything that you particularly like.
3. Before leaving your office, close Studio 2009 if it is open, and turn off your computer as well. If you feel like, take a dictionary with you.
4. If possible, invite a friend who is a specialist of the author / period. (Preferably: a native French who understands the nuances and the references that may remain unveiled for others.) Leave yourself enough time to read the poem many times before your friend arrives.
5. Discuss the poem over a particularly nice coffee, a splendid tea, a glass of champagne - something that you do not often take when you go to a café.
6. When you have finished the discussion, let your friend go. If it is not yet closing time, take a pen and a paper, and try to make a first translation. When done, go through it again, improve where you can, and mark the points where you would like further improvents but you can't find it yet.
7. Choose another splendid day, and meet your friend again, under similar conditions. Discuss your translation.
8. Repeat step 7 as many times as necessary. Make sure to ignore such factors as "productivity", "performance" and the like. You are creating something that needs time and inspiration. (If Studio 2009 or any of its competitors has an Inspiration add-on, please let me know.)
9. When ready, let the translation stay in your drawer for a couple of weeks/months. It will keep working in your head. You may find a great improvemen, while walking the dog, watching a sunrise after an all-night campfire, or simply speaking about it with friends.
10. If/When you get paid for it, spend it on yet another glass of champagne with your friend at the café. (You may need to complement the sum from other paid work.) Poetry translation is very rarely paid well, so make sure to enjoy it as much as possible, without worrying about the money. It is very often translating such texts that we feel extremely proud of our profession - and that gives us more motivation for bread-and-butter translations.
Finally, here is an excellent video, the recorded conference session (Ohrid, 2009) of Victor Morozov, Harry Potter's Ukrainian translator. Make yourself a mug of coffee, and enjoy.
Best,
Attila
[Edited at 2011-06-09 09:59 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 01:24
Italian to English
In memoriam | The question is not why... | Jun 9, 2011 |
... but how.
As Paul says, poetry is potentially just as valuable as prose in your TM.
How you incorporate the text will depend to some extent on the nature and length of the original text, though. If you opt for Studio, you'll probably have to adjust your segmentation rules to suit the verse structure but of course meaning will always spill over from segment to segment at some level. On the plus side, Studio gives you a better overview of the source text than Workbench... See more ... but how.
As Paul says, poetry is potentially just as valuable as prose in your TM.
How you incorporate the text will depend to some extent on the nature and length of the original text, though. If you opt for Studio, you'll probably have to adjust your segmentation rules to suit the verse structure but of course meaning will always spill over from segment to segment at some level. On the plus side, Studio gives you a better overview of the source text than Workbench, although it would be nice if it automatically placed the active segment centre screen (please vote for this idea).
The other option is simply to translate in a text editor and align source and target later. This will ensure you are not getting blinkered by the segmentation, and is probably the safer route to take, but could compromise consistency in particularly long poems. ▲ Collapse
| | | | apk12
Germany
Local time: 01:24
English to German
+ ...
Attila Piróth wrote:
(If Studio 2009 or any of its competitors has an Inspiration add-on, please let me know.)
Best,
Attila
Nah, I'll wait with my subscription until the "Inspiration+Creativity 4.37" is there. Yeah, let us know please when this add-on is ready for download.
Should run on LitKnows Ista. If also compatible with HistKnows 7, even better.
[Edited at 2011-06-09 11:27 GMT]
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jacana54 (X)
Uruguay
English to Spanish
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| I don't understand why you want to do it this way | Jun 9, 2011 |
opolt wrote:
Where is the benefit in doing so, given that poetry (almost by definition) should be non-repetitive? Even if you have a body of pretranslated works, it's difficult to see the advantage.
I am, however, most impressed by the difficulty of the job you are tackling. My congratulations in advance, and good luck!
| | | | Peter Linton (X)
Local time: 00:24
Swedish to English
+ ...
| Using CAT tools for poetry | Jun 9, 2011 |
opolt wrote:
Excuse me, but why would one use a CAT tool for the translation of a poem?
Simple – to avoid overtyping.
This has always struck me as being a big – if not the biggest – advantage of CAT tools: they present 2 copies of the segment you are translating, therefore leaving one intact while you translate the other.
For that reason alone I would use, and have used, a CAT tool for literary translation, including poetry. Much better than overtyping, which in comparison is clumsy and error-prone.
There is another perverse advantage of CAT tools. As other people have rightly said, in literary translation you generally want to avoid repetitions. Because a CAT tool identifies repetitions, it can help you do exactly that.
In short, CAT tools can be good for literary translation – but for unconventional reasons.
| | | | Verónica Ortega
Argentina
Local time: 20:24
Member (2008)
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | yes CATs can be useful in literature! | Jun 9, 2011 |
Thanks Attila for your inspirational respnse. Very close to poetry indeed.
I agree with Paul in that CAT tools can be used in literary translation to avoid repetition and retyping. It can also be useful to just be able to identify repetitions in the source text and maintain consistency, which is obviously crucial to a good translation. Contrary to what many people may think, literary texts can be repetitive sometimes, specially in terms of specific words or concepts. How many times ... See more Thanks Attila for your inspirational respnse. Very close to poetry indeed.
I agree with Paul in that CAT tools can be used in literary translation to avoid repetition and retyping. It can also be useful to just be able to identify repetitions in the source text and maintain consistency, which is obviously crucial to a good translation. Contrary to what many people may think, literary texts can be repetitive sometimes, specially in terms of specific words or concepts. How many times does the word ennui appear in Baudelaire's Fleurs du mal, for exemple? I can assure you it's not just once or twice, and this word has at least three possible translations into Spanish, so as I said, CAT tools can help maintain consistency.
Thanks Tomás, Giles and Paul from SDL support for your valuable comments. ▲ Collapse
| | | | opolt
Germany
Local time: 01:24
English to German
+ ...
| Thanks Veronica | Jun 10, 2011 |
Thank you for the feedback.
I will think about what you said, though frankly right now I don't get the point about repetitions/retyping, especially when it comes to poetry, and even more so in the case of a sonnet -- one of the most highly stylized form of poems with regard to meter, rhyme, etc. These limitations simply don't allow for CAT-like consistency.
You're right though that it can help you to identify repetitions in the source.
I could elaborate, a... See more Thank you for the feedback.
I will think about what you said, though frankly right now I don't get the point about repetitions/retyping, especially when it comes to poetry, and even more so in the case of a sonnet -- one of the most highly stylized form of poems with regard to meter, rhyme, etc. These limitations simply don't allow for CAT-like consistency.
You're right though that it can help you to identify repetitions in the source.
I could elaborate, and namely wrt Baudelaire's "Fleurs du Mal", but this thread has already gone OT quite a bit (mea culpa!), which wasn't my intention.
I'm relatively new to CATs and quite simply I was intrigued why someone would use such a tool for poetry.
As you can see I'm still very much puzzled, but I'm aware I'm rather conservative and truly old-fashioned in this regard, so you can safely ignore my opinion here (I'm saying this without irony!).
So no matter which tool you are going to use, I wish you good luck with your project!
[Edited at 2011-06-10 00:16 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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apk12
Germany
Local time: 01:24
English to German
+ ...
Gosh imagine you're working on poetry translation and...
opolt wrote:
You're right though that it can help you to identify repetitions in the source.
...and you need a CAT to recognize or prevent a repetition...
Disprepancies, different views, reasons for different decisions can be seen as a debate, a different positioning is simply a different attempt - regarding the question whether one would regard a CAT tool as helpful for poetry translation.
("... storm of negative comments ..." - people are positioning, they should for heaven's sake have their right to do so, I think. --- sentence irrelevant, since corrected, see below - btw great was already searching for an umbrella for the storm...)
[Edited at 2011-06-10 15:45 GMT]
| | | | opolt
Germany
Local time: 01:24
English to German
+ ...
As you can see, I have corrected/deleted the "storm" comment I made, because it simply wasn't correct.
Apart from that, I think I've made it clear that I can't follow Verónica in her approach, and basically I agree with you apk12 -- sorry if that didn't come across.
Of course people should be allowed to position themselves! The only thing, it was all OT.
Now, if anyone is inclined to start a new thread on the topic, I will gladly join in and make my point,... See more As you can see, I have corrected/deleted the "storm" comment I made, because it simply wasn't correct.
Apart from that, I think I've made it clear that I can't follow Verónica in her approach, and basically I agree with you apk12 -- sorry if that didn't come across.
Of course people should be allowed to position themselves! The only thing, it was all OT.
Now, if anyone is inclined to start a new thread on the topic, I will gladly join in and make my point, and I'm sure you'll see that I have strong opinion on the issue, and many arguments to support it.
So as far as I'm concerned, there's not really any disagreement between us
[Edited at 2011-06-10 00:39 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 01:24
Italian to English
In memoriam | The whole hog | Jun 10, 2011 |
opolt wrote:
As you can see I'm still very much puzzled, but I'm aware I'm rather conservative and truly old-fashioned in this regard, so you can safely ignore my opinion here (I'm saying this without irony!).
Hi opolt,
If we're going to be conservative about this, why not go the whole hog? Let's get rid of pens and paper!
Socrates tells the story of Theuth, the inventor of writing, in Plato's Phaedrus. Like all innovators, Theuth ran up against objections, the most cogent of which came from Thamus, the ruler of Egypt, who pointed out that writing would inevitably discourage people from exercising their memories.
By the time Plato wrote Phaedrus, the Greeks had been writing in one form or another for well over a thousand years yet the point was still a valid one as communication continued - and continues today - to require an effort of memory.
Biros and typewriters have since ruined the art of calligraphy, in its infancy in Europe when Plato was alive, and computers have changed our approach to communication in ways we probably haven't yet completely understood.
In practical terms, though, we translators now have a box of tools at our disposal that would have delighted Theuth. Unlike him, we have the luxury of choosing the ones that are best for whatever translation job we have on our desks this morning.
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