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How can we deal with bad manner proofreader
Thread poster: Kerati Kuaimongkol
Kerati Kuaimongkol
Kerati Kuaimongkol  Identity Verified
Thailand
Local time: 19:29
Member (2007)
English to Thai
Feb 8, 2011

I just experienced a bad manner proofreader who try to discredit me in order to take my position.

She make preferential change and sometime the sentence became worse. She change almost every sentence (of course, preferential).

The problem is she live in the same country of the client and the client tend to believe her.

I decide to leave this client because I have to deal with another projects rather than defend every unfair comment for every project.
... See more
I just experienced a bad manner proofreader who try to discredit me in order to take my position.

She make preferential change and sometime the sentence became worse. She change almost every sentence (of course, preferential).

The problem is she live in the same country of the client and the client tend to believe her.

I decide to leave this client because I have to deal with another projects rather than defend every unfair comment for every project.

Do you guys have any bad experienced about this situation and how do you deal with them?
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Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:29
Member (2008)
Italian to English
well.... Feb 8, 2011

Kerati Kuaimongkol wrote:

I just experienced a bad manner proofreader who try to discredit me in order to take my position.

She make preferential change and sometime the sentence became worse. She change almost every sentence (of course, preferential).

The problem is she live in the same country of the client and the client tend to believe her.

I decide to leave this client because I have to deal with another projects rather than defend every unfair comment for every project.

Do you guys have any bad experienced about this situation and how do you deal with them?



Isn't that what all proofreaders do? -look for as many "mistakes" as possible, even when there aren't any?

[Edited at 2011-02-08 09:55 GMT]


 
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 13:29
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Don't drop the case Feb 8, 2011

Kerati Kuaimongkol wrote:
I decide to leave this client because I have to deal with another projects rather than defend every unfair comment for every project.
Do you guys have any bad experienced about this situation and how do you deal with them?

Even if you finally decide to drop the customer, I think you should not surrender to the proofreader's positions, which is what will happen if you stop now.

In my opinion, you should prove (with examples, excerpts of grammar manuals or other official documents) that your approach was correct in the affected sentences. And in fact the proofreader should do the same. It is just not enough to say "this is wrong"; the proofreader must demonstrate that she is right.

Just for your peace of mind and your professional prestige, I would insist in examining the changes in detail and issue a report politely explaining why you believe the proofreader is wrong.


 
FarkasAndras
FarkasAndras  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:29
English to Hungarian
+ ...
well... Feb 8, 2011

Not to be rude, but the original poster's has't exactly demonstrated a flawless command of English in the first post. I have counted 13 errors in that brief post, and the thread title isn't grammatically correct, either. Of course that doesn't have much direct bearing on an English to Thai translation, but to be honest, I would expect a professional translator to have a better grasp of their source language than this, even if it's just their passive language.
For all we know, the proofread
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Not to be rude, but the original poster's has't exactly demonstrated a flawless command of English in the first post. I have counted 13 errors in that brief post, and the thread title isn't grammatically correct, either. Of course that doesn't have much direct bearing on an English to Thai translation, but to be honest, I would expect a professional translator to have a better grasp of their source language than this, even if it's just their passive language.
For all we know, the proofreader might be right about their corrections.

What I do in similar situations, and what I recommend to you is to concentrate on the facts. Write up a tree-column table of the first fifty sentences that the proofreader made changes in. Source text, your translation, the proofreader's version. Then analyse each and see how many errors the proofreader corrected, how many errors they introduced (this happens surprisingly often in my experience), how many sentences they made more elegant and smoother etc. Make comments in the fourth column.
If your analysis shows that all the proofreader did was mess up your text, then send your results to the client, including the table of course.

The fact that the proofreader made lots of changes, many of which affected sentences that were not "wrong" in your opinion doesn't mean anything. Proofreaders have a right to alter sentences for stylistic purposes if the client so wishes. If they made the text clumsier, grammatically incorrect or they diverged from the original, then you have a leg to stand on.
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Laurent KRAULAND (X)
Laurent KRAULAND (X)  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 13:29
French to German
+ ...
My approach Feb 8, 2011

Tom in London wrote:

Isn't that what all proofreaders do? -look for as many "mistakes" as possible, even when there aren't any?


As a proofreader, my approach is to keep as much as possible of the original translation: "If it ain't broken, don't fix it!"

And I am happy to say, for the sake of the profession in general, that I managed to stick to this perspective in 99% of the cases. MT'ed translations presented as original human work, lack of consistent terminology, awkward formulations and mechanical use of CAT tools account for the remaining 1%.

Anyone willing to compare facts and figures?


 
Argyro Alykatora
Argyro Alykatora  Identity Verified
Greece
Local time: 14:29
Member (2009)
English to Greek
+ ...
Agree with Tomas Feb 8, 2011

I think we have all experienced this situation on a number of cases. Use points of reference or style guides provided by the client or even acknowledged dictionaries and grammar books in your language to prove your point. I know it does take time, but your client will also learn to trust you more and respect you. If you accept everything, it kind of proves you were wrong and the proofreader was right. You can even politely make a note of that to your client with specific examples. Don't let the ... See more
I think we have all experienced this situation on a number of cases. Use points of reference or style guides provided by the client or even acknowledged dictionaries and grammar books in your language to prove your point. I know it does take time, but your client will also learn to trust you more and respect you. If you accept everything, it kind of proves you were wrong and the proofreader was right. You can even politely make a note of that to your client with specific examples. Don't let the proofreader intimidate you if you don't deserve it, even more let a client go!Collapse


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:29
Member (2008)
Italian to English
but.. Feb 8, 2011

Laurent KRAULAND wrote:

As a proofreader, my approach is to keep as much as possible of the original translation: "If it ain't broken, don't fix it!"

And I am happy to say, for the sake of the profession in general, that I managed to stick to this perspective in 99% of the cases. MT'ed translations presented as original human work, lack of consistent terminology, awkward formulations and mechanical use of CAT tools account for the remaining 1%.

Anyone willing to compare facts and figures?


But Laurent - if a translating agency sends you a translation to check that has obviously been done by MT or is just bad work, surely they are not doing their job? Doesn't the agency do its own check, first?


 
Alexandre Chetrite
Alexandre Chetrite
France
Local time: 13:29
English to French
About the proofreader in general Feb 8, 2011

Hello,

How can one possibly prove to the client that the proofreader is wrong or how a translator can force a proofreader to prove that he or she is right?

There is no legal obligation to this. And the client most of the time tends to agree with the proofreader, so this is unfair for the translator.

Even when showing grammar manuals , etc , how can the client distinguish between what is right and what is wrong?

I understand that proofreaders a
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Hello,

How can one possibly prove to the client that the proofreader is wrong or how a translator can force a proofreader to prove that he or she is right?

There is no legal obligation to this. And the client most of the time tends to agree with the proofreader, so this is unfair for the translator.

Even when showing grammar manuals , etc , how can the client distinguish between what is right and what is wrong?

I understand that proofreaders are paid to find mistakes, but what would happen if a proofreader didn't fin any mistake? Would he still be paid? Maybe that the translator's work has no mistakes, in this case the proofreader would still want to to find mistakes and justify his work?

Also I wonder if the translaor can ask the name of the proofreader and check his or her credentials/qualifications. Most of the time he or she is anonymous.

Question: in case of too many mistakes, the client may retain on the translator's pay to pay the proofreader. Can the translator ask first to be paid the full amount as agreed and then discuss about this issue with the proofreader after being paid? It's harder to recover money after....

[Edited at 2011-02-08 14:35 GMT]
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Suzan Hamer
Suzan Hamer  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 13:29
English
+ ...
Tom, Tom, TOM! Feb 8, 2011

Laurent KRAULAND wrote:

Tom in London wrote:

Isn't that what all proofreaders do? -look for as many "mistakes" as possible, even when there aren't any?


As a proofreader, my approach is to keep as much as possible of the original translation: "If it ain't broken, don't fix it!"



Please don't tar us all with the same brush.

Like Laurent, as a proofreader my only goal is to make sure there are no errors in the text. I only identify and correct errors. I do not "create" them.

Unfortunately Kerati seems to be dealing with someone who, as he says, wants to discredit him to take his position.


 
Kerati Kuaimongkol
Kerati Kuaimongkol  Identity Verified
Thailand
Local time: 19:29
Member (2007)
English to Thai
TOPIC STARTER
example Feb 8, 2011

It's hard to inform you guys exactly about why I said it is unfair.

Most of the changes is like: Change " I always go to school by bus" to "I often goes to school by bus" or something like this.

First, I try to explained the client but this kind of situation happened almost every sentence in the document. While the first project still not clear, the second project comment was the same and the client tend to believe the proofreader because she live in the same country as
... See more
It's hard to inform you guys exactly about why I said it is unfair.

Most of the changes is like: Change " I always go to school by bus" to "I often goes to school by bus" or something like this.

First, I try to explained the client but this kind of situation happened almost every sentence in the document. While the first project still not clear, the second project comment was the same and the client tend to believe the proofreader because she live in the same country as the client, so the client thinks that the proofreader skill is better than me.

I'm very upset because I always received a good comment by the proofreader, and even I receive negative comment, which is fair, I always humbly accept, but this is too much.

Also when I play role as proofreader, I always "respect" the original translation and make change only necessary.
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Laurent KRAULAND (X)
Laurent KRAULAND (X)  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 13:29
French to German
+ ...
I found one... right here! Feb 8, 2011

Alexandre Chetrite wrote:
(.../...)
I understand that proofreaders are paid to find mistakes, but what would happen if a proofreader didn't fin any mistake? Would he still be paid? Maybe that the translator's work has no mistakes, in this case the proofreader would still want to to find mistakes and justify his work?


I found one big mistake... right here!

As a proofreader who is a translator first and foremost, I too was faced with the overzealous proofreader who couldn't leave the smallest hair untouched.

This is totally and completely the wrong attitude towards proofreading and people with such mindsets should jump in the lake to start and to end with...

As per payment: I am always paid by the hour and not by the amount of mistakes I find or not. And I now prefer declining PR assignments which would take more time than a translation from scratch (truth be told: sometimes pure MT post-editing!).

Please get some facts and not only assumptions!


 
Laurent KRAULAND (X)
Laurent KRAULAND (X)  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 13:29
French to German
+ ...
But #2 Feb 8, 2011

Tom in London wrote:

Laurent KRAULAND wrote:

As a proofreader, my approach is to keep as much as possible of the original translation: "If it ain't broken, don't fix it!"

And I am happy to say, for the sake of the profession in general, that I managed to stick to this perspective in 99% of the cases. MT'ed translations presented as original human work, lack of consistent terminology, awkward formulations and mechanical use of CAT tools account for the remaining 1%.

Anyone willing to compare facts and figures?


But Laurent - if a translating agency sends you a translation to check that has obviously been done by MT or is just bad work, surely they are not doing their job? Doesn't the agency do its own check, first?


Sincerely, Tom and as an example: would any German PM have the time (or take the time) to browse through any kind of French translation and to determine whether it was made the human way or not? They can have the feeling that something may be wrong - but a feeling or an impression in itself is not what we should call "proof" that something is indeed wrong.
Generally speaking out of my experience, serious PM's will send files out to the proofreader without making any comments as per their own impressions or feelings.
That's the picture I am accustomed to.


 
Krzysztof Kajetanowicz (X)
Krzysztof Kajetanowicz (X)  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 13:29
English to Polish
+ ...
two things Feb 8, 2011

Kerati Kuaimongkol wrote:

It's hard to inform you guys exactly about why I said it is unfair.

Most of the changes is like: Change " I always go to school by bus" to "I often goes to school by bus" or something like this.


First, if this is an accurate comparison, except for very rare circumstances I wouldn't call a change from "always" to "often" preferential. However, I would call a change from "frequently" to "often" preferential – and I completely wouldn't care, unless the client seemed to think these were adjustments of errors.

The example is of course for the sake of argument only. I'm trying to discuss the nature of a "preferential" change, rather than the English language itself.

Second, the translations I get for review often contain lots of very awkward sentences, put together by someone who either couldn't or wouldn't rephrase the sentence from English syntax to Polish. Sentences that would have never been written like that, had the text originated in Polish. Is an "awkward" sentence an error? In my mind, it is.

[Edited at 2011-02-08 12:06 GMT]


 
Kerati Kuaimongkol
Kerati Kuaimongkol  Identity Verified
Thailand
Local time: 19:29
Member (2007)
English to Thai
TOPIC STARTER
Not an accurate example Feb 8, 2011

Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote:

Kerati Kuaimongkol wrote:

It's hard to inform you guys exactly about why I said it is unfair.

Most of the changes is like: Change " I always go to school by bus" to "I often goes to school by bus" or something like this.


First, if this is an accurate comparison, except for very rare circumstances I wouldn't call a change from "always" to "often" preferential. However, I would call a change from "frequently" to "often" preferential – and I completely wouldn't care, unless the client seemed to thing these were adjustments of errors.

Second, the translations I get for review often contain lots of very awkward sentences, put together by someone who either couldn't or wouldn't rephrase the sentence from English syntax to Polish. Sentences that would have never been written like that, had the text originated in Polish. Is an "awkward" sentence an error? In my mind, it is.

[Edited at 2011-02-08 12:05 GMT]


I'm sorry for inaccurate example, in Thai, we can replace a lot of word by another work with EQUAL meaning, and if we want to make change in this point, we can always change it.


 
Amy Duncan (X)
Amy Duncan (X)  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 09:29
Portuguese to English
+ ...
Nothing more annoying... Feb 8, 2011

...than an overzealous proofreader. Not only is it annoying when you see a bunch of totally unnecessary "corrections," but to me the worst thing is that it's a time-waster. It takes time (sometimes a LOT of time) to defend yourself against one of these zealots. I once stopped working with a company because of this problem.

 
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