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Reliability/blue board list on translators?
Thread poster: Andrei Albu
Angie Garbarino
Angie Garbarino  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:46
Member (2003)
French to Italian
+ ...
Illegal Sep 18, 2010

This sort of negative feedback is illegal in some jurisdictions ( in Italy for sure but also in other jurisdictions were the "truth citerion" does not apply), as it would be considered defamation even if true.

But IMHO if not supported by strong evidence, it could be defamation also in jurisdictions were the "truth citerion" applies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation

Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against groundless criticism. Related to defamation is public disclosure of private facts, which arises where one person reveals information that is not of public concern, and the release of which would offend a reasonable person. "Unlike [with] libel, truth is not a defense for invasion of privacy.


Best regards to all



[Edited at 2010-09-18 21:11 GMT]


 
Paula Borges
Paula Borges  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:46
Member (2010)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
Once again, translators would be vulnerable Sep 18, 2010

It's not like translators can afford to sue clients/outsourcers abroad, is it? We can't even do it when we're not paid, imagine trying that for defamation.

Personally, I find Proz an excellent tool for networking and finding new clients, therefore well worth the money. Now, if I were to be worried about revenge, defamation, people trying to ruin my reputation not to pay me and whatnot, I certainly wouldn't find it worth the investment.

Probably due to the remote relatio
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It's not like translators can afford to sue clients/outsourcers abroad, is it? We can't even do it when we're not paid, imagine trying that for defamation.

Personally, I find Proz an excellent tool for networking and finding new clients, therefore well worth the money. Now, if I were to be worried about revenge, defamation, people trying to ruin my reputation not to pay me and whatnot, I certainly wouldn't find it worth the investment.

Probably due to the remote relationship we have with everyone involved in our business, all sorts of horror stories are true: translators trying to ruin each other and, more commonly, companies claiming you didn't do something right in order to claim discounts or not pay you. We can't really trust that the whole community will behave according to the highest ethical standards, can we?

We have seen cases of colleagues trying to ruin each other's reputation on Kudoz, there are all sorts of psychos and people can be that low.

As for the BlueBoard on outsourcers, that's to protect us, translators, the majority of the users of this website. Most complaints are related to payment, and can be removed in case the case is resolved, sounds fair.

I do know of an agency in Brazil that threatens to sue anyone who tells their colleagues they don't pay - people will normally remove their comments because the agency can afford expensive lawyers, translators usually can't.

As someone said, an agency will continue getting clients if they get a bad comment but for translators that's probably the end of it - not fair. A company has responsibilities and deals with higher risks, it's not wise to put a freelancer's career and income (and why not life?) in a very fragile position.

As for outsourcers, they can check references, perform tests, small assignments, build trust and not give jobs to whoever has the lowest rates - that is how they will lower their risks. In fact, I would think that the Certified Pro Network is a good tool to reduce risk as well.

Agencies would find it much easier if they were focused in building long-term relationships with translators, rather than trying to widen their profit margin more and more.

The original poster put himself in a risky situation by stating that late delivery meant no payment.

It's wrong of the translator not to get in touch, but anything could happen: accidents, illness, natural disaster cutting communication, or even death, I've heard of cases like that so we must always have a plan B.

[Edited at 2010-09-18 23:15 GMT]

[Edited at 2010-09-18 23:17 GMT]

[Edited at 2010-09-18 23:19 GMT]
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Robert Forstag
Robert Forstag  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 08:46
Spanish to English
+ ...
The whole idea of a BB for outsourcers is to even the playing field. Sep 19, 2010

After all, it is freelancers who are asked to do deliver work that may be worth several hundred dollars--or considerably more--and then wait for payment 30,45,or 60 days. Under such circumstances, it is essential to know if an outsourcer with whom collaboration is being considered has a good payment record (or, at the very least, if they do not have a poor payment record).

Outsourcers have many different ways to evaluate a translators' abilities prior to contracting their services.
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After all, it is freelancers who are asked to do deliver work that may be worth several hundred dollars--or considerably more--and then wait for payment 30,45,or 60 days. Under such circumstances, it is essential to know if an outsourcer with whom collaboration is being considered has a good payment record (or, at the very least, if they do not have a poor payment record).

Outsourcers have many different ways to evaluate a translators' abilities prior to contracting their services. They can review kudoz contributions, request previously completed translations or sample translations, request references, etc. They can also limit their risk by initially assigning small projects to any new translators that they work with. And if they don't like the work of a given translator, they need never again avail themselves of his or her services.

Negative ratings for freelancers was a bad idea from the beginning, for reasons mentioned in this thread and in many previous threads.
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Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 13:46
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Let's face it: it's never the "seriously ill" situation Sep 19, 2010

Jennifer Barnett wrote:
Of course the translator may have suddenly fallen seriously ill or had an accident, making communication impossible. If so, one would assume that he/she would contact the outsourcer as soon as is he /she can or get someone else to do it.

Over the years I have seen numerous reports from outsourcers here about "missing" translators. Let's face it: unless you have an accident that suddenly renders you unconscious, you always have a chance to send someone to your office or home, look for a PO in your email and call the number on the PO to report that you cannot continue working on the job.

The chances that a translator is rendered unconscious by sudden illness or accident are really 0,001%.

If a translator does not respond, it is because he/she was not determined to finish the job anyway. I completely support to hire translators who are members of a professional association!.


 
Robert Rietvelt
Robert Rietvelt  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:46
Member (2006)
Spanish to Dutch
+ ...
Blue Board Sep 19, 2010

Andrei Albu wrote:

Robert Rietvelt wrote:

So, I agree with your idea, not with your reasons.


I wonder, what better reasons would be needed apart from the fact that this person seems to be dishonest? If an agency fails to fulfil their obligations, you (should) report them on the Blue Board or whatever payment practice lists. And by no means is this considered a revenge. But just a way to warn others and let them be duly informed before deciding whether to enter or not a business relation with someone.


I meant a Blue Board is a tool to advice/recommend/warn a potential translator (client) about/for the services rendered, and not a "hate list". That was all I wanted to say. Furthermore, one of the reasons I am in favour for a Blue Board for agencies, is the fact that it will separate the sheep from the goats. Before I accept an assignment from a for me unknown agency, I always have a look at the Blue Board. If the score is a 3 or lower, I simply dont accept the job. I hope translation agencies will do the same, it's only fair.

[Edited at 2010-09-19 19:08 GMT]


 
polyglot45
polyglot45
English to French
+ ...
Sympathy Sep 19, 2010

Yet again, I am gobsmacked that people should be so keen to defend a defaulting translator. If the current mentality as reflected in the impression obtained from this and other related forums is that translators have all the rights, cannot be criticised and can merrily exceed their deadlines without anyone being able to say a word, then I hope you all realise that "guests" coming to the site looking for someone to handle their jobs are going to be extremely upset at the strong likelihood that th... See more
Yet again, I am gobsmacked that people should be so keen to defend a defaulting translator. If the current mentality as reflected in the impression obtained from this and other related forums is that translators have all the rights, cannot be criticised and can merrily exceed their deadlines without anyone being able to say a word, then I hope you all realise that "guests" coming to the site looking for someone to handle their jobs are going to be extremely upset at the strong likelihood that they may pick a potential defaulter.

While I can understand that Andrei may not be keen to pay this translator, I would respectively suggest that - to use a French expression - "he missed a great opportunity to shut up" when he mentioned that here. He may just have totally discouraged someone, who was already unreliable, to give up altogether. I would contemplate not paying the guy, too, but I wouldn't state it publicly here !

I suspect the only answer now is to find someone else or do it youself and to send the defaulting translator a note telling him either a) to send what, if anything, he has done or b) to deliver nothing and get paid accordingly.

I have found myself in similar situations and it is all very well for the smug among you to say you should only work with people you can trust but a) you have to start somehere in building up a trust relationship and b) even people you trust let you down at times. I am disgusted by the fact that there are people who call themselves translators but apparently have no sense of ethics. Great for the image of the profession, wouldn't you say ? And the mud, when it hits the fan, splashes us all.

I only work with direct clients and they trust me because they know I will always meet my deadlines other than in a case of force majeure, that I won't accept a deadline that is unrealistic. I rarely have deadline problems so if I say "no can do" they take it seriously. But sometimes, to help them, I ask a peer for help. I am shocked at how often such "peers" immediately start to want to extend deadlines, when I've told them that the deadline is inflexible (people bidding for big international contracts have to meet their own deadlines and wouldn't like to miss the deal because of a slow translator). We are a major link in the chain - do we want to be the weakest link?

As to "naming and shaming", I can see a case for it, not for revenge reasons but to stamp out the cowboys and give the profession greater credibility. I find it illogical that one can criticise bad payer firms, for example, but not bad worker translators. I recognise the downsides that others mentioned but you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs...And it might just make some people pull up their socks.
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Paula Borges
Paula Borges  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:46
Member (2010)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
Exactly Sep 19, 2010

Robert Forstag wrote:

After all, it is freelancers who are asked to do deliver work that may be worth several hundred dollars--or considerably more--and then wait for payment 30,45,or 60 days. Under such circumstances, it is essential to know if an outsourcer with whom collaboration is being considered has a good payment record (or, at the very least, if they do not have a poor payment record).

Outsourcers have many different ways to evaluate a translators' abilities prior to contracting their services. They can review kudoz contributions, request previously completed translations or sample translations, request references, etc. They can also limit their risk by initially assigning small projects to any new translators that they work with. And if they don't like the work of a given translator, they need never again avail themselves of his or her services.

Negative ratings for freelancers was a bad idea from the beginning, for reasons mentioned in this thread and in many previous threads.



Agreed.

I don't think anyone is defending the translator at all, just saying that the idea of a blueboard of translators would be counterproductive because there's a lot of unethical behaviour out there, normally from agencies finding excuses not to pay and translators in general shouldn't have to be put in a very vulnerable position because of the doings of some.

There's always a risk, even when there's trust, from both parties. Even the best rated agencies or long-term partners will fail to pay, and sometimes agencies are rated unfairly on the blueboard too.

There's a huge difference between a company (an institution) and a freelancer. There's no denying that freelancers are obviously the most vulnerable ones.

Based on my experience, I can picture agencies trying to leave bad comments whenever we demand our payment in due time, refuse to give discounts, leave a typo in the translation or choose a word they don't particularly like. How many times do we deliver work and have people come up with excuses to demand discounts? I wouldn't wanna be a member of a site on which someone like that could ruin people's careers.

[Edited at 2010-09-19 22:12 GMT]


 
Luis Arri Cibils
Luis Arri Cibils  Identity Verified
Local time: 07:46
English to Spanish
+ ...
Ancient history Sep 19, 2010

This issue was debated at length in 2006, with 51 pages of comments, sometimes very heated (a few posters quit ProZ or were asked to do so for failure to comply with the posting rules):

<
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This issue was debated at length in 2006, with 51 pages of comments, sometimes very heated (a few posters quit ProZ or were asked to do so for failure to comply with the posting rules):

http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_job_systems/49940-new_at_prozcom:_outsourcer_willingness_to_work_again_feedback_for_translators.html

Henry wrapped up the debate on July 26, 2006, saying: “Now, a request. The option now exists to be out/out entirely. I would ask that those who will not be using the system at all--the out/outs--be considerate of those who wish to use and improve WWA. Feel free to contribute in future discussions, but please also realize that there are those who want to focus on the mechanics now, and be respectful of that process.”

I was one of the “over my dead body” group, opposing a mandatory WWA. In fact, I was the first one using that term, something about which Henry pulled my leg at the Buenos Aires Conference later in 2006.

I certainly do not like cowboys in any profession, and, as a lawyer, I am subject to penalties for a cowboy conduct in my law practice, including disbarment. However, those sanctions require “notice and an opportunity to be heard,” in short, due process. When a professional activity such as a translation has no generally accepted standards, “I know a bad translation when I see it”, it is practically impossible to fairly impose sanctions –and publicly listing complains is a sanction, maybe even a capital sanction. And, doing so, it would require establishing a process to decide whether the accused party is or not guilty of misbehavior, something that ProZ, or for that matter ATA and similar organizations are not set to provide. I am an ATA-Certified EN>ES Translator and have yet to see a Conduct Committee within ATA.

Regarding agencies, and thus the LWA, on the other hand, the main issue is whether they paid or not, something that can be decided by just showing a copy of the check.

And regarding hiring of freelance translators, serious agencies have already their database they have built for years. Most translators who occasionally subcontract have their list of trustful collaborators. I have both for my pair as well as the reverse one. If I am asked outside that, I cite names, mostly from ProZ, but I disclaim any specific knowledge re their ability as well as their trustworthiness. I certainly do not ask any commission for that reference.

I’d better leave this here, I do not want to rehash the 51 pages of that discussion.
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Edward Vreeburg
Edward Vreeburg  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 13:46
Member (2008)
English to Dutch
+ ...
similar experience... Sep 20, 2010

I've had a similar experience, I believe it was a German translator, "travelling" in China, promised me a good rate and failed to deliver, asked for 2 extentions of the deadline (which I gave) and came up empty, (and it was not even 100 words)

Finally I cancelled the assignment, asked to deliver anything he had already done, (nothing was received), assigned it to another translator, and that was that.

I also asked to be removed from his mailing list, because he keeps s
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I've had a similar experience, I believe it was a German translator, "travelling" in China, promised me a good rate and failed to deliver, asked for 2 extentions of the deadline (which I gave) and came up empty, (and it was not even 100 words)

Finally I cancelled the assignment, asked to deliver anything he had already done, (nothing was received), assigned it to another translator, and that was that.

I also asked to be removed from his mailing list, because he keeps sending emails about all the languages they do and the special offers they have, they keep changing the name too! - -

But that's just what somebody else said, never entrust work to untested or untrustworthy translators, always ask for a small 1 page paid test for any big project.. to see if they can handle it....

People are not there to help you, it's your business and you make sure the work gets done. Why else would you outsource work to 3rd parties anyway, if you cannot handle it yourself and have no backup - just in case - , maybe the proofreader can take over?

Ed
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