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Would you offer translation reviews for free to an agency?
Thread poster: apk12
Laurent KRAULAND (X)
Laurent KRAULAND (X)  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 12:17
French to German
+ ...
This interpretation is confirmed... Jun 28, 2010

Samuel Murray wrote:
Aside: It was interesting to see from the ATA letter that the ATA's definition of "crowdsourcing" seems to be "any form of volunteerism for non-charitable causes". This is an extremely wide definition of crowdsourcing, and one that can potentially harm legitimate crowdsourcing projects.


by the code of ethics of the SFT, i. e. no work shall be provided for free (= no monetary compensation, resp. non-monetary compensation) to commercial enterprises.

And without being sure about this, I think that the FIT supports this interpretation too.


 
Attila Piróth
Attila Piróth  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 12:17
Member
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@ Samuel Jun 28, 2010

Hi Samuel,

Samuel Murray wrote:
You're confusing some issues here:

1. LinkedIn asked translators to do unpaid word, but LinkedIn never required (or asked) translators to do unpaid work in the prospect of a paid assignment. So the section from the ATA's code of conduct does not apply to LinkedIn.


No, I am not confusing anything here.

I cited the ATA Code of Professional Conduct in reference to the original post of this thread. You wrote:
They offer payment in kind (points, to be redeemed somewhere for something).

Then "for the prospect of a paid assignment" applies pretty well to this case, don't you agree?

3. Nothing in the ATA code of conduct seems to me to imply that "paid assignment" would necessarily exclude payment in kind. The LinkedIn case above does not support such an interpretation of the ATA code.


I cited ATA's president taking position against the LinkedIn proposal because in that reaction it was made clear that a work remains "unpaid" unless it receives monetary compensation. In other words, according to the position taken by ATA's president in this letter, payment in kind (points, etc.) is not considered as an acceptable form of payment.

If you can point to something in the ATA's code of conduct which prohibits volunteerism in non-charitable cases, I'd love to see it.


No, the ATA Code of Professional Conduct does not deal with offering volunteer help. It mentions only requiring it.

How would you apply the cited item of the ATA Code of Professional Conduct to th present case (not to LinkedIn)?

Attila


 
Heiko Schmieder (X)
Heiko Schmieder (X)  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 12:17
English to German
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free review? No! Jun 28, 2010

Hi,

this practise of free reviewing is quite odd, at least in a professional context. It sounds a bit like these automated-job-distribution-systems - where the agency is no longer really involved in the translation process. They just set the parameters for language, category and delivery time - everything else is made by freelancers -if they get to see the doc at all... I don't know - from a business point a great idea - everything is automated. I'm not sure if I should like it or n
... See more
Hi,

this practise of free reviewing is quite odd, at least in a professional context. It sounds a bit like these automated-job-distribution-systems - where the agency is no longer really involved in the translation process. They just set the parameters for language, category and delivery time - everything else is made by freelancers -if they get to see the doc at all... I don't know - from a business point a great idea - everything is automated. I'm not sure if I should like it or not but I prefer to work for companies where a real person sends me the document and knows at least a bit of the context. Might be old fashioned but I don't like the idea to get ordered by an automated listing system.

Free review? No thanks.



Best,
Heiko
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Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 12:17
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
SFT and ATA Jun 28, 2010

Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
Samuel Murray wrote:
Aside: It was interesting to see from the ATA letter that the ATA's definition of "crowdsourcing" seems to be "any form of volunteerism for non-charitable causes". This is an extremely wide definition of crowdsourcing, and one that can potentially harm legitimate crowdsourcing projects.

This interpretation is confirmed... by the code of ethics of the SFT, i. e. no work shall be provided for free (= no monetary compensation, resp. non-monetary compensation) to commercial enterprises.


1. SFT and ATA are not related, and you can't interpret ATA's code by referencing it with SFT's.

2. SFT's code of ethics does not mention crowdsourcing. My gripe in the sentence you quote above was with the sweeping definition for the word "crowdsourcing" and not with whether volunteer actions for non-charitable causes are commendable or objectionable. I have removed the sentence from my post before I saw that you had commented on it.

3. You may be right about the SFT's stance on unpaid translation:
http://www.sft.fr/page.php?P=fo/public/menu/gestion_front/index&id=518

The translator has the right to remuneration for its services ... In the interest of the workmanship and tasks performed except an occasional basis and volunteer in a social and humanitarian commitment, the translator is prohibited from seeking or accepting a fee, to grant discounts or rebates, constitute unfair competition acts. (Google Translate translated)

And without being sure about this, I think that the FIT supports this interpretation too.


Perhaps, but I find nothing in the FIT's regulations that support that view. The only mention of remuneration that may relate to our discussion comes from the Translator Charter:
http://www.fit-ift.org/en/charter.php

8. The translator shall refrain from any unfair competition in carrying out his profession; in particular, he/she shall strive for equitable remuneration and not accept any fee below that which may be fixed by law and regulations. and

19. For every public use of his/her translation the translator shall be entitled to remuneration at a rate fixed by contract or law.



[Edited at 2010-06-28 12:44 GMT]


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 12:17
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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@Attila Jun 28, 2010

Attila Piróth wrote:
Samuel Murray wrote:
You're confusing some issues here: ...

No, I am not confusing anything here. I cited the ATA Code of Professional Conduct in reference to the original post of this thread.


Ah, my apologies, then.

You wrote:
They offer payment in kind (points, to be redeemed somewhere for something).

Then "for the prospect of a paid assignment" applies pretty well to this case, don't you agree?


Perhaps, although I'm not completely convinced.

I cited ATA's president taking position against the LinkedIn proposal because in that reaction it was made clear that a work remains "unpaid" unless it receives monetary compensation. In other words, according to the position taken by ATA's president in this letter, payment in kind (points, etc.) is not considered as an acceptable form of payment.


Yes, but the purpose of the president's letter wasn't to clarify the code of conduct, and I think one should be very careful when trying to apply what is written in a president's letter to the way the code should be interpreted (in effect making the president's letter an appendix or supplement to the code).

I disagree with your interpretation of his letter, namely that "it was made clear that a work remains "unpaid" unless it receives monetary compensation". I've read his letter several times, but I don't see this being said or implied in his letter. It is true that he mentions the unpaid nature and the for-points nature of LinkedIn's system in the same sentence, but that does not mean he equates the two.

In his letter, he does not object to the points system (or the badge system) at all. He mentions the badge in his introductory paragraphs, but that is simply to provide context for his objections. His objections are clearly stated below the introductory paragraphs, namely (a) translators should not do volunteer work for non-charitable causes and (b) crowdsourcing leads to loss of quality, unless there is professional review.

But I think this issue is rather far removed from APK12's original question.

The ATA Code of Professional Conduct does not deal with offering volunteer help. It mentions only requiring it.


I don't want you to think that I'm just dodging the issue here, but I can't quite get my head around the word "required". The only way in which a company can "require" a translator to do something is if the translator had signed a contract to that effect. To my mind, asking is not the same as "requiring". Providing an incentive isn't the same as "requiring" either.

But perhaps the ATA's interpretation of the word "require" is that is means the same as "ask" -- how knows?

How would you apply the cited item of the ATA Code of Professional Conduct to th present case (not to LinkedIn)?


Well, having reread APK12's original post, I'm not convinced that the site is actually promising anything in exchange for the reviews. I'm waiting for APK12 to confirm this, but the wording he uses in his post is something to the effect of "if you do reviews for free, you may (perhaps) get more jobs (from somewhere)" and not "if you do reviews for free, then we (the site itself) will give you more jobs".



[Edited at 2010-06-28 13:06 GMT]

[Edited at 2010-06-28 13:07 GMT]


 
Tonja Gaspersic
Tonja Gaspersic
Slovenia
Local time: 12:17
German to Slovenian
+ ...
No thanks. Jun 28, 2010

No. My child and me, we can´t just "review" the food neither, can we? At least not for long...

 
3ADE shadab
3ADE shadab
Local time: 16:47
Member (2008)
Hindi to English
+ ...
Not for sure.. Jun 28, 2010

gastona1 wrote:

No. My child and me, we can´t just "review" the food neither, can we? At least not for long...



there is nothing free in this world.. so no free of cost, but yes if someone worked for you either or someone give you work and paid on time, give all required information related project and also provide all related support which is required for a project, then yes its good to provide your positive feedback to the world which will give him crediblity in the market and helps you as well somewhere.

Regards
Shadab


 
apk12
apk12  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 12:17
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER
Thank you all, so far Jun 29, 2010

Thank you all so far for contributing.

So, if I didn't miscount, it were 10 translators with a "No" or "No, Never!", 1 signalizing "remote availability", 1 another something I would describe as "remote understanding" and another translator something I would call a "remote sympathy" for this idea.

But this thread had more than 1400 visitors. (Edit: ok, Attila is right here. 1400 views.)

So views, then.

Still: No other voices?


... See more
Thank you all so far for contributing.

So, if I didn't miscount, it were 10 translators with a "No" or "No, Never!", 1 signalizing "remote availability", 1 another something I would describe as "remote understanding" and another translator something I would call a "remote sympathy" for this idea.

But this thread had more than 1400 visitors. (Edit: ok, Attila is right here. 1400 views.)

So views, then.

Still: No other voices?




[Edited at 2010-06-29 10:07 GMT]
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Attila Piróth
Attila Piróth  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 12:17
Member
English to Hungarian
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Off topic: Number of visitors Jun 29, 2010

apk12 wrote:
But this thread had more than 1400 visitors.


It has had over 1400 views (visits) rather than visitors. Many of us visited it several times, so I would guess the number of visitors is a few hundred - which is still great.

Best regards,
Attila


 
Marjolein Verhulsdonck-Roest
Marjolein Verhulsdonck-Roest
Netherlands
Local time: 12:17
English to Dutch
+ ...
No, plain and simple. Jun 29, 2010



Still: No other voices?



Here's mine...


 
Andrea Riffo
Andrea Riffo  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 08:17
English to Spanish
+ ...
No Jun 29, 2010



PS: please PM me the name of the agency...

Andrea

[Edited at 2010-06-29 18:48 GMT]


 
apk12
apk12  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 12:17
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER
news. Jul 11, 2010

hi ariffo :] perfect answer, I'd say.

---

hello dear forum readers, sry for bringing this thread here on top again coincidentally.
1.) I have to say that I was contacted via private message feature in reply to this thread. among them were some very interesting letters. the topic seems to interest the people.
2.) the last message I got was someting which I think is worth to be placed in this thread. the sender said it's free of any author rights, I can do w
... See more
hi ariffo :] perfect answer, I'd say.

---

hello dear forum readers, sry for bringing this thread here on top again coincidentally.
1.) I have to say that I was contacted via private message feature in reply to this thread. among them were some very interesting letters. the topic seems to interest the people.
2.) the last message I got was someting which I think is worth to be placed in this thread. the sender said it's free of any author rights, I can do with it whatever I want.
here's what I got:

--

just got an info. sender says: "008"

title of message: call PM1 (company X) PM2 (company y)
sibtile subtitle: "a career snapshot. alias: patented comment fields number 2."

text:

PM1: hello. we just read you claim on your page to ask your translators for opinions?
PM2: yes. actually, we value the opinions of our translators. all of them very educated people. (mostly those who know about grammar details...)
PM1: yes. we have an information for you.
PM2: ...and we pay our translators for their valuable opinions. because when they made them for us, they were neither working on their own projects nor on their own marketing. but made the opinions instead. and in order to have them and to phrase them, they are using their translation skills. so, they provide us with translation service. so we pay them. FYI: we use dollar currency for this.
PM1: yes. I'm sorry to inform you that you will have to stop to ask your translators for opinions.
PM2: (large question sign, silence, longer silence, then) why this?
PM1: you may have not noticed yet. but we patented opinions. please send us the sum (digit illegible due to flybug sound in the wire) or otherwise the opinions of your educated translators. btw our legal department is a bit bored in the moment so it's no problem if you send them later.
PM2: oh, I see, you patented opinions.
PM1: yes, we thought you know this...
PM2: (silence.)
PM1: (silence.)
(long long silence. much longer than it takes to read it this line of text.)
PM2: you patented opinions?
PM1: we answered this already. may we please return to the topic and...
PM2: wow you patented opinions... must have been a quite expensive infrastructure cost causing thing, istn't it? how did you manage to get this paper? do you pay them more? you can really pay them more than we do??
PM1: we managed to make them believe they have to do it for free. sorry to hear that you did not discover the trick. could we please return to the topic now.
PM2: no problem, please excuse us for this mistake due to misinformation. all we knew was we are forbidden to use comments fields due to a new patents phenomenon in the industry. aha, the opinions are patented, I see. you want the opinions cargo with all their typos or net weight?
PM1: alright. and please don't forget to send it free buyer's address. thanks.


---

comments?

oh and I just wanted to say - I made some coincidental research in the meanwhile and I herewith ask Henry and/or other ProZ staff member(s) to please inform us when you are ready with the patent for your comment fields here in this forum. I mean, it seems this is quite "freaky and in" now, to patent them, so I also prefer to use a patented forum entry field. when are you ready with this, any idea/time frame estimation?

oh and maybe a last comment. I mean - this here is a translators networking place, isn't it? so I herewith would like to officially announce that I am extremely open to be contacted directly by the translator(s) who translated this mentioned patent. georgeous stuff, please let me take a look at how it looks to patent a comment field, plz. am ready to pay for this, but please only those people who translated t.h.i.s. mentioned comment-field-for-free patent.





[Edited at 2010-07-11 09:12 GMT]
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Jared Tabor
Jared Tabor
Local time: 08:17
SITE STAFF
Could you clarify that? Jul 13, 2010

Hello apk12,

apk12 wrote:
oh and I just wanted to say - I made some coincidental research in the meanwhile and I herewith ask Henry and/or other ProZ staff member(s) to please inform us when you are ready with the patent for your comment fields here in this forum. I mean, it seems this is quite "freaky and in" now, to patent them, so I also prefer to use a patented forum entry field. when are you ready with this, any idea/time frame estimation?


I'm afraid I have to ask for clarification on what you mean by "patenting" comment fields. Thanks.

Jared


 
Mr Florida
Mr Florida
Local time: 07:17
German to English
+ ...
No Jul 13, 2010

I don't work for free.

 
apk12
apk12  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 12:17
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
;] Jul 13, 2010

Jared wrote:

Hello apk12,

...

I'm afraid I have to ask for clarification on what you mean by "patenting" comment fields. Thanks.

Jared


:] hi jared.

ex.ac.tl.y.

thanks for your short insight comment sticking to the point.

.

new thread joining readers will find the answer to this here.

[Edited at 2010-07-13 23:23 GMT]


 
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