| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Lower rates BECAUSE I use CAT tools???? Thread poster: HealthcarePro
|
|---|
Williamson 
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:05
Flemish to English
+ ...
| The only winner is the agency. | Nov 16, 2009 |
If you give discounts for trados, the only winner is the agency. More than often, they do not include discounts for their cusotmers. I am more than happy to refuse any offer with x% matches, x%reps etc. No discounts for any tool, which enhances productivity. Do you give discounts for Dragon Dictate too.
You can always leave those identical parts out.
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 02:05
Greek to English
+ ...
| Do something else to save yourself | Nov 17, 2009 |
"After all, it wouldn't be reasonable to get paid full rate if you can translate an entire sentence by pressing a key."
According to Michiel and Fernando, Microsoft should probably reduce the price of Windows 7 to 1 cent, because all CDs sold in stores are "repetitions".
In the insurance and financial industry we are getting paid a fixed commission every time the client pays the premium (or it is charged in his credit card). A personal accidents policy wit... See more "After all, it wouldn't be reasonable to get paid full rate if you can translate an entire sentence by pressing a key."
According to Michiel and Fernando, Microsoft should probably reduce the price of Windows 7 to 1 cent, because all CDs sold in stores are "repetitions".
In the insurance and financial industry we are getting paid a fixed commission every time the client pays the premium (or it is charged in his credit card). A personal accidents policy with $100 premium which lasts for 30 years will pay you a commission of $22.50 every single year that the client pays the premium (you only sell it once and you get the commission every time the client pays).
Also, the car repair shops charge you good money for just connecting the computer to your vehicle and pressing one button. They charge you because "they have the computer".
A CAT tool or Trados is a BUSINESS INVESTMENT. Which means you should make money out of it.
Both Fernando and Michiel think like employees, not like free lance professionals. You see, lawyers who specialize in car accidents, usually ask their clients the same exact questions each time (same procedure for most minor accidents), but they don't offer discounts because they did the same procedure the previous day!
As a matter of fact, they charge more every year, due to inflation and due to the fact that they become better in repeating the same things.
Both lawyers and financial professionals (millions of them) and car repair shops are very happy with the way things work and they never propose to themselves and to others to lower their rates because they "bought a hydraulic system that lifts the car to change the oil more easily".
You could use your Trados to offer some form of discount, as an incentive, but if everyone starts offering their business tools for free then the agencies will start requiring anything they want from you (they already do).
On the example of 6 euros for two pies vs. 10 euros for 1 pie, I would say that 6 euros are not enough if you want to cover insurance, maintenance, upgrading, machine replacement, future competition with other machines (you will need to have cach aside) etc etc. Eventually a competitor will come and sell it for 5 euros, in which case you have to outsource to China and then wait for a government bailout.
You see, Microsoft Windows 7 is a product which is STILL produced (it is produced every day, more and more millions of CDs are produced and sent to the stores every day), however its price it still the same (despite the fact that the number of copies multiplies on a daily basis).
I would advise you, for your future professional and life success, regardless of if you stay in the translation industry, to ask the opinion of people who have become really wealthy and successful with legitimate and tried methods, and not the opinion of people who think and act like salaried employees, adjusting their earnings lower on the basis of "basic needs".
If you open your eyes and your experience to the world of upper scale professionals ($200K net earnings and up per year), then you will probably be shocked at the stuff people say at proz.com and their mentalities. Don't stick to the lower end of the professionals market such as the market of translators. That's peanuts and in some cases cheap exploitation on the basis of "where you live". Better become an agency, or open your wings to a whole new world out there... I believe you got the talent for it. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | @Eleftherios | Nov 17, 2009 |
Of course I agree that translators need to make money with their investment (as I mentioned in my first post). It's a bit odd to even suggest the opposite. And therefore I don't think that a Windows 7 CD should be sold for 1 ct (the cost of a CD alone is a bit higher than that ). It's just a question of how much money you want to make off the investment and what you think is reasonable given the market situation.
I do not sugg... See more Of course I agree that translators need to make money with their investment (as I mentioned in my first post). It's a bit odd to even suggest the opposite. And therefore I don't think that a Windows 7 CD should be sold for 1 ct (the cost of a CD alone is a bit higher than that). It's just a question of how much money you want to make off the investment and what you think is reasonable given the market situation.
I do not suggest that repetitions should be free of charge or at a rock bottom rate. I'm only saying that a FULL rate would not be reasonable. The pressing of a button to translate a repetition or a 100% match is not exactly brain surgery, let's be reasonable.
To comment on your insurance and lawyer comparison: are you suggesting that it's a good thing that they are paid a high rate for performing the same trick over and over again? I do think they are overpaid and I, for one, don't feel the need to be part of that. And if that means that I won't be making six figures a year, then so be it.
Cheers & happy translating,
Michiel
[Bijgewerkt op 2009-11-17 08:56 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | |
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
"After all, it wouldn't be reasonable to get paid full rate if you can translate an entire sentence by pressing a key."
According to Michiel and Fernando, Microsoft should probably reduce the price of Windows 7 to 1 cent, because all CDs sold in stores are "repetitions".
A CAT tool or Trados is a BUSINESS INVESTMENT. Which means you should make money out of it.
I make it short. TIME, you get paid for your TIME.
If you can say NO to projects involving CAT analysis, well, be happy. You will get a lot of money for your TIME if you use a CAT and do not accept the analysis.
Not compare apples and oranges. You offer a service not a product. If you want to be millionaire, write a bad OS, a book or make a song, but if you are a service offer you will always be paid for your TIME.
Regards
[Edited at 2009-11-17 09:53 GMT]
| | |
|
|
|
| I have never saved time or money with Trados | Nov 17, 2009 |
ViktoriaG wrote: Fernando Toledo wrote:
you don't need the same time to do repts manually as with a CAT! Of course not! But I would resume the client's request thus: you now offer better service, therefore you should charge less. Does this make any sense? What makes you think that all of the benefits of using a CAT tool should be reaped by the client? Who paid for the software? Who paid for the training? Who paid for the certification? Who paid for the time taken to do all this? Whoever that is should reap the benefits. The client already gets benefits in kind (faster turnaround, better consistency, etc.). I think they should be content with the hand and not moan to get the arm with it, too. What if difool23 bought Trados precisely to make more money over a shorter period of time? How is that the client's concern?
This is so true.
Why do agencies expect you to buy Trados and all the updates, install them, iron out the bugs, maintain the TMs and Multiterm... pay for courses, because no, it is NOT something anyone can work out as soon as they open the program... Subscribe to the hotline etc. for free?
Trados has many advantages, but they come at a price. Agencies want to benefit from them - great, so do I. But I am also in the business to earn a living, not just to buy an expensive toy and play with it, so I pass on a share of the costs.
Remember that the time required for a job is not just the time between signing the PO and delivery.
You have to cover the time required to have the computer ready with Trados and the rest installed, plus dictionaries or whatever resources you need (subscriptions to online databases etc. etc. if you prefer) and taking suitable breaks to eat, sleep, exercise ... I usually proofread 100% matches like the rest of the text because I cannot separate them out.
... not to mention administrative work like invoicing the client afterwards and paying tax on your heard-earned fees.
Trados does not reduce most of these costs at all. Taking overheads into account, it does NOT reduce the total time that you spend on a job by anything like the percentage of repeat words.
So you have to reflect your costs in higher base rates if you are then supposed to give big reductions on them.
Happy translating, folks!
[Edited at 2009-11-19 15:23 GMT]
| | | | | Worst analogy yet? | Nov 17, 2009 |
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
According to Michiel and Fernando, Microsoft should probably reduce the price of Windows 7 to 1 cent, because all CDs sold in stores are "repetitions".
There is a flaw so big in this analogy that you could drive a lorry through it. I may take the liberty of adding it to my webpage of inappropriate comparisons.
It also seems to me that both you and Fernando actually are not so different in your viewpoints. Your point about lawyers boils down the fact that lawyers typically charge for the time they take, and then Fernando makes the same point. The only difference is the income level.
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 09:05
French to German
+ ...
Charlie Bavington wrote:
It also seems to me that both you and Fernando actually are not so different in your viewpoints. Your point about lawyers boils down the fact that lawyers typically charge for the time they take, and then Fernando makes the same point. The only difference is the income level.
Then why are we supposed to quote on words? Ever seen that any kind of client would pay us more because we deliver ahead of schedule because we have become experts of that specialty and can process the work faster? No, most of them want per word rates and stick to them, no matter if we need 5 days or 5 hours to do a translation - because (but that's nothing but hypothetical) they are "unable" to quantify our work in any other way.
[Edited at 2009-11-17 11:31 GMT]
| | | | | Theory and practice | Nov 17, 2009 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
Trados does not reduce most of these costs at all. Taking overheads into account, it does NOT reduce the total time that you spend on a job by anything like the percentage of repeat words.
Yes, you are right, but this is another question.
It could be the perfect solution for both parts but in fact, mostly the translator get the short piece of the cake.
Trados is expensive and like Windows not the best system, but there are also other CATs not so expensive, or for free. I don't like the upload sales policy of Trados, in 10 years you spend too much money, this is the reason that lot of people use other systems. Better (MemoQ, DVX), cheaper (Wordfast), for some big companies better management (Transit, Across) or for free like Across, OmegaT, and others...
Regards
| | |
|
|
|
| Answered your own question | Nov 17, 2009 |
Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
Then why are we supposed to quote on words?
because they are "unable" to quantify our work in any other way.
That.
And because there are some people who view our output as a commodity not a service.
And because it is transparent and open, and enables clients to see the basis for charging clearly (once it is explained, in some cases) and indeed enables them to predict the cost of future services, compare providers, and so on.
| | | |
Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
most of them want per word rates and stick to them, no matter if we need 5 days or 5 hours to do a translation - because (but that's nothing but hypothetical)
Next time I have a job with a terminology no present in any dictionary, I will make a xls list of this words and send it to you. I'll pay you 20 cts/word, OK?
they are "unable" to quantify our work in any other way.
[Edited at 2009-11-17 11:29 GMT]
You have to see if the work can be done or not. Long ago, I received a list of 500 words. I translated 10 of them. It took me 30 min. because for every word I needed to do some research. I extrapolated my time in cts / words and I communicated my rate to the customer .... Yes, he did not respond to my proposal
I lost 30 min. but if I have accepted the job with standard price I'd lost much more time=money
Regards
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 09:05
French to German
+ ...
| And the price... | Nov 17, 2009 |
Charlie Bavington wrote: Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
Then why are we supposed to quote on words?
because they are "unable" to quantify our work in any other way. That. And because there are some people who view our output as a commodity not a service. And because it is transparent and open, and enables clients to see the basis for charging clearly (once it is explained, in some cases) and indeed enables them to predict the cost of future services, compare providers, and so on.
Agreed, although the price doesn't reflect stricto sensu the value of a translation or of another service... This is one of the main problems nowadays, and not only in the translation industry.
@Fernando: sorry, I am failing to see your point... plus I don't translate lists.
[Edited at 2009-11-17 12:01 GMT]
| | | |
Laurent KRAULAND wrote: Charlie Bavington wrote: Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
Then why are we supposed to quote on words?
because they are "unable" to quantify our work in any other way. That. And because there are some people who view our output as a commodity not a service. And because it is transparent and open, and enables clients to see the basis for charging clearly (once it is explained, in some cases) and indeed enables them to predict the cost of future services, compare providers, and so on. Agreed, although the price doesn't reflect stricto sensu the "practical" value of a translation or of another service...
No, I agree with you there too, the price of a translation (as calculated on the basis of the cost per word) tends to reflect the perceived value of the provider's labour, not the value of the translation to the wider "project" (for want of a better word) of which it forms part.
Although there are exceptions. Some marketing work (slogans) is paid based on the value, and I recently heard of a case where the value was effectively the charging basis for subtitling a corporate video. Neither consisted of many words - indeed, the notional word rate would be tens of euros per word - but the work was essential to the projects concerned, and was remunerated accordingly.
This probably goes some way to explaining the high hourly rates charged by some professions....:-)
| | |
|
|
|
Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:05
Flemish to English
+ ...
Is there a flaw in these analogies :
Last Friday, I consulted a lawyer. When I asked how much I owed her she answered 150 euros/138 pounds without blinking an eye. I must have been in her office somewhat more than one hour. I hope I don't have to consult her again. Do you think that next time she will give a reduction for a consultation about the same case? I don't think so.
The winner is the agencies. If you translate construction specifications and you manage to get h... See more Is there a flaw in these analogies :
Last Friday, I consulted a lawyer. When I asked how much I owed her she answered 150 euros/138 pounds without blinking an eye. I must have been in her office somewhat more than one hour. I hope I don't have to consult her again. Do you think that next time she will give a reduction for a consultation about the same case? I don't think so.
The winner is the agencies. If you translate construction specifications and you manage to get hold of them directly from construction companies, they don't even mention rebates, because the price of your work is but a drop in the ocean of the entire building. If an agency gets hold of it, you can bet on it that you will be asked to use trados and give rebates, because the same formula appears time and again at the end of each chapter or because the word "demolition, hammer, drill, etc..." is used several times. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Being paid for time and saving time to make more money | Nov 17, 2009 |
Fernando Toledo wrote:
I make it short. TIME, you get paid for your TIME.
Right. And what if I find that my hourly wage (since I am getting paid for my TIME) is not covering my level of expertise and my experience anymore? What if I want to get a raise? Who will give it to me? I will. There are essentially two ways to achieve this: raising rates and buying software that increases my productivity.
Raising rates may be tough for many of us. Some clients just can't afford higher rates than what we already charge, which means we need to replace them by more lucrative clients. And that takes TIME. TIME that nobody gets paid for. Get it?
So, you can instead buy software and improve your productivity (create TIME you can get paid for). But software doesn't come cheap, so you have to pay for that TIME. And then, learning to even count words so you can provide a quote takes TIME--that nobody pays for.
Not to mention TIME the client is already getting free because of faster turnaround, better consistency and, in many cases, the entire DTP step being skipped (that's a lot of unbilled TIME) because Trados lets you translate InDesign and Quark files (almost) in the native format. The client is spending less TIME already...
And then, let's consider that TIME is a limited resource. It takes TIME to become an expert in something, but there are only 24 hours in a day. By saving TIME on translating, translators can get more rest, which in turn increases the capacity of their brains so they can do their jobs better. By saving TIME, they also become more available to their clients. Aren't those valuable advantages for clients? Not only they don't have to pay for it, but in certain cases (like the one we are discussing), they want to get paid for it. Huh.
And since when does a client decide how much your TIME is worth?
Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
No, most of them want per word rates and stick to them, no matter if we need 5 days or 5 hours to do a translation
And if I find a way to turn 5 days of my time into 5 hours, why shouldn't that provide me with some kind of benefit? Why should the client get all of the benefit? After all, what is the motivation to get things done faster? It sure isn't to fatten the client's bank account, at least not in my neck of the woods. I am willing to help clients make more money, but I am unwilling to just throw wads of cash at them. I am working to earn a living, not to help some corporation get rich. I think some people should look up the meaning of the word freelancer in the dictionary...
I am a productivity tool freak. After acknowledging that I was tired of being overworked, I have spent a lot of money on tools that allow me to spend less time on certain tasks. In short, I am buying TIME--for money. However, I am not any richer. This is because my point in increasing my productivity was not to make more money but to have more time away from work. And my clients benefit from this: I can work faster, more efficiently and have a better quality output because my brain is wide awake after a good night's sleep and often after a few well-deserved days off. That I should pay for my client to have this advantage is, to say the least, absurd.
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 02:05
Greek to English
+ ...
So, what you guys are saying is that:
a) The Agencies and the Outsources can freely make money from repetitions, but the translators do not have this right.
b) A more experienced translator should be paid less money for the same project than a non-experienced translator, because he can finish the project in less time.
c) Translators should police themselves and charge only on the basis of the actual work they performed and the time they spent (translators s... See more So, what you guys are saying is that:
a) The Agencies and the Outsources can freely make money from repetitions, but the translators do not have this right.
b) A more experienced translator should be paid less money for the same project than a non-experienced translator, because he can finish the project in less time.
c) Translators should police themselves and charge only on the basis of the actual work they performed and the time they spent (translators should have chronometers tied to their chest and police themselves accordingly).
This does NOT apply to oursourcers and agencies, which can charge on the basis of making money out of good deals and using their tools to their advantage.
d) Translators should use the tools they bought with their own money to the advantage of the outsourcers and the agencies (mostly) and keep 10% for themselves (that the example with the 6 euros per pie).
e) We should be charging less and less in the future, because we have larger TMs and faster computers.
What a pathetic association... ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Lower rates BECAUSE I use CAT tools???? | Trados Business Manager Lite | Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio
Trados Business Manager Lite helps to simplify and speed up some of the daily tasks, such as invoicing and reporting, associated with running your freelance translation business.
More info » |
| | Trados Studio 2022 Freelance | The leading translation software used by over 270,000 translators.
Designed with your feedback in mind, Trados Studio 2022 delivers an unrivalled, powerful desktop
and cloud solution, empowering you to work in the most efficient and cost-effective way.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
Translation news
