| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9] > | Turn-key translations? Thread poster: writeaway
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Aniello Scognamiglio (X) 
Germany
Local time: 18:00
English to German
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| No comment... | Jul 20, 2009 |
From your FAQs:
6.4 - How is invoicing handled? [Direct link]
At this time, the system does not collect or issue invoices from translator to client. If your tax authority has specific invoicing requirements, you may not be able to use the turn-key translation service in its current state. If you need an invoice for accounting purposes, you might consider creating an invoice in your system as a placeholder for the transaction. If there proves to be a demand for this serv... See more From your FAQs:
6.4 - How is invoicing handled? [Direct link]
At this time, the system does not collect or issue invoices from translator to client. If your tax authority has specific invoicing requirements, you may not be able to use the turn-key translation service in its current state. If you need an invoice for accounting purposes, you might consider creating an invoice in your system as a placeholder for the transaction. If there proves to be a demand for this service, invoicing capabilities will be added to the system.
6.5 - How are taxes handled? [Direct link]
You are responsible for any taxes that may be due on your payment. The amount of any taxes due is considered to be included in the total payment amount offered for the task.
At this time, the system does not calculate or collect any taxes. If your tax authority requires that you collect or pay taxes on such transactions, it is your responsibility to handle this outside of the turn-key translation system. If you are unclear about your tax obligations for the use of this service, you are advised not to use the service at this time.
No comment... ▲ Collapse
| | | | PRen (X)
Canada
Local time: 13:00
French to English
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Henry D wrote:
but really, I think you can relax a bit. 15 to 20 euros of work per day -- with one translator meeting one new translation customer in the process -- is not going to bring down the industry or your livelihood any time soon.
...you've managed to "bring down" the industry quite a few notches in the last few years. This should take it down a few more.
| | | | Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:00
German to English
+ ...
| Aside from the legalities | Jul 20, 2009 |
which certainly look as if they are problematic, for me the biggest issue remains the conflict of interest in having Proz.com act in any regard whatsoever in a manner that might be construed overtly or otherwise as an agency.
Client confidentiality is of paramount importance to me. It is the prime reason why I do not use the WWA feature and have not applied for the P label. It seems that my reticence is well-placed while this evident conflict of interests pertains.
I am... See more which certainly look as if they are problematic, for me the biggest issue remains the conflict of interest in having Proz.com act in any regard whatsoever in a manner that might be construed overtly or otherwise as an agency.
Client confidentiality is of paramount importance to me. It is the prime reason why I do not use the WWA feature and have not applied for the P label. It seems that my reticence is well-placed while this evident conflict of interests pertains.
I am surprised at the way in which our legitimate concerns have just been swept aside here. I do hope that over the course of the next few days something more cogent is provided that will assure us of the professionalism of this web-site and its owners. Bad practice reflects on us all as members and none of us can afford to let this one go. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Uldis Liepkalns
Latvia
Local time: 19:00
Member (2003)
English to Latvian
+ ...
| I think this needs a translation into plain English | Jul 20, 2009 |
6.4 - How is invoicing handled? [Direct link]
At this time, the system does not collect or issue invoices from translator to client. If your tax authority has specific invoicing requirements, you may not be able to use the turn-key translation service in its current state. If you need an invoice for accounting purposes, you might consider creating an invoice in your system as a placeholder for the transaction. If there proves to be a demand for this service, invoicing capabilities will be added to the system.
6.5 - How are taxes handled? [Direct link]
You are responsible for any taxes that may be due on your payment. The amount of any taxes due is considered to be included in the total payment amount offered for the task.
At this time, the system does not calculate or collect any taxes. If your tax authority requires that you collect or pay taxes on such transactions, it is your responsibility to handle this outside of the turn-key translation system. If you are unclear about your tax obligations for the use of this service, you are advised not to use the service at this time.
OK, here comes the translation:
"c'mon, guys, is it so hard to fake an invoice?"
Uldis
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6.5 - How are taxes handled? [Direct link]
You are responsible for any taxes that may be due on your payment. The amount of any taxes due is considered to be included in the total payment amount offered for the task.
WTF?!?
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Thanks, Jason, for the confirmation of the legitimacy of our concerns.
Henry D wrote:
Would it be the end of the world to be invited to complete a 20-minute, 20 euro job, with the potential to meet a new client in the process?)
How do you calculate the 20 minutes? According to the currently applied rates, this job would consist of at least 200 words. Since another job was paid at 9.6 USD/word, I would assume that the higher rate applies to texts that contain some subject-specific terminology.
Handling a translation job does not only consist of translating a few words:
- receive e-mail with invitation
- look at the attached file to be translated
- do all steps required to accept the project
- wait for confirmation
- translate 200 words (your 20 min estimate would be based on 600 words/hour, which is possible, but not very likely for a text containing specific terminology. Often, the shorter the text, the less context, the more time spent on terminology research. In other words, you often don't make any money on short jobs, even with generous minimum fees.)*
- some jobs require time-consuming formatting, which can take much longer than the actual translation
- spell-check and proofread
- submit translation
- enter all relevant job data into our own administrative databases
So that's 20 bucks for a lot of time-consuming steps. This would be worth the trouble only for translators almost desperate for work and/or new clients.
If you then take the de-valued dollar, Wallet fees, currency exchange fees, bank fees, VAT, income taxes, etc. into account, this would pretty much leave only translators from countries with much lower cost of living - and the aforementioned desperate translators or newcomers who don't know any better due to lack of experience.
How can Proz guarantee the quality of the translation under these circumstances when the resulting income dwindles close to nothing and is thus extremely unattractive to qualified translators? With automatically matched translators on top of that? (And the 15-days escrow doesn't change a thing as most customers don't speak both source and target language and can't even evaluate the accuracy and quality of the translation.) I think this entire approach - if one assumes purely non-commercial motives - is rather naive as well as half-baked.
*This raises the question whether there is the means of communication between customer and translator during the translation process in case of questions. Under the Turnkey concept, it seems likely that this is something that would even be discouraged in order to reduce the "overhead"...
How is this entire turnkey concept helping to educate clients in regard to the intricacies involved in translation if it's portrayed as being as easy as "text - push button - receive high-quality translation almost instantaneously and hassle-free"? "Short" cannot be equated with "piece of cake", but that's exactly what happens here.
| | | | PRen (X)
Canada
Local time: 13:00
French to English
+ ...
| Just to clarify Heike, | Jul 20, 2009 |
Heike Behl, Ph.D. wrote:
Since another job was paid at 9.6 USD/word,
It was 9.6 cents per word (US dollars).
| | | | | Turnkey jobs would be right if... | Jul 20, 2009 |
The only way I can see this concept working is:
- If the translator could invoice ProZ and ProZ could invoice the end client
- If these jobs placed qualifications and other criteria before the red P criteria
- If the translator could see the text before deciding to accept the job and if s/he could quote on it (not all text is worth the same rate even if the translator is the same)
- If ProZ weren't the one to decide whether a translation deemed unsatisfactory by th... See more The only way I can see this concept working is:
- If the translator could invoice ProZ and ProZ could invoice the end client
- If these jobs placed qualifications and other criteria before the red P criteria
- If the translator could see the text before deciding to accept the job and if s/he could quote on it (not all text is worth the same rate even if the translator is the same)
- If ProZ weren't the one to decide whether a translation deemed unsatisfactory by the client really is unsatisfactory
- If ProZ didn't unilaterally decide to reduce or cancel payment to the translator in case of a dispute
- If ProZ was able to safeguard confidential information, which is currently at debate
But if the turnkey job system worked the way I describe above, then it would be more than safe to conclude that ProZ is in fact an agency.
In fact, the current scheme looks to me a lot more like a translation broker scheme, which is even worse than the worst kitchen table agency. For one thing, taking a 33% cut on someone's work is only justified if the one taking the cut adds some kind of value, which doesn't seem to be the case. It is true that ProZ would be putting translators and clients in touch with each other--but isn't that already covered by the membership fee? ▲ Collapse
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That's all I've got time for tonight, but it sums it up anyhow.
| | | | PRen (X)
Canada
Local time: 13:00
French to English
+ ...
| Hilarious. Not. | Jul 20, 2009 |
ViktoriaG wrote: 6.5 - How are taxes handled? [Direct link]
You are responsible for any taxes that may be due on your payment. The amount of any taxes due is considered to be included in the total payment amount offered for the task. WTF?!?
So, the person located in Canada who did a job for me (I paid Proz.com $15.15, she was paid $10.10 for doing the translation), has to take Canadian provincial sales and federal goods and sales tax out of that amount and remit it to the government. In my province, that amounts to 13%, and I have to charge that on every invoice I send out, and then remit all tax collected, minus tax paid on eligible expenses, every quarter. Now she's "reaping" $8.94 (before any transaction fees).
[Edited at 2009-07-20 19:27 GMT]
| | | | | But how did it work for you, PRen? Would you ever consider a turnkey job? | Jul 20, 2009 |
PRen wrote:
...you've managed to "bring down" the industry quite a few notches in the last few years. This should take it down a few more.
Clearly you don't like this idea, PRen. But why are your criticisms still so general at this point? I was being serious, you are now the leading customer of turnkey translations. So if you are going to trash the idea, won't you give some specific details from your experience with it?
I mean, was the work ok? Would you consider working directly with the translator(s) who did your jobs in the future?
Putting yourself in the position of the translator, as you have seen the system work, are you saying you would never like to be notified of turnkey translation opportunities? If not, why not?
As a more general point, PRen and others, if you have specific issues with the way an idea is being pursued, it is more helpful when you express those concerns in such a way that Jason, or whoever is working on a given project, can act on them. Statements like the one above, well, they just don't get anyone anywhere.
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 18:00
French to German
+ ...
I.
ViktoriaG wrote:
The only way I can see this concept working is:
- If these jobs placed qualifications and other criteria before the red P criteria
As per today, I always thought or assumed that the red P criterium was awarded as the result/summary of qualifications and other criteria, these being determined with reference to http://www.proz.com/pro-tag/info - is this not the case? Then why do this site and its users need the red P distinction at all?
II.
As I now derive it from Henry's posts about the subject, the positive side of TK jobs would be to bring P-certified ProZians in touch with potential clients, at conditions which are not ideal but are better than doing so-called translation tests for free.
Laurent K.
[Edited at 2009-07-20 19:48 GMT]
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| And ProZ.com is reaping $3 | Jul 20, 2009 |
Sorry, PRen, I hadn't seen your latest post when I made mine. Thanks for the specifics.
PRen wrote:
So, the person located in Canada who did a job for me (I paid Proz.com $15.15, she was paid $10.10 for doing the translation), has to take Canadian provincial sales and federal goods and sales tax out of that amount and remit it to the government. In my province, that amounts to 13%, and I have to charge that on every invoice I send out, and then remit all tax collected, minus tax paid on eligible expenses, every quarter. Now she's "reaping" $8.94 (before any transaction fees).
Right. By comparison, ProZ.com is "reaping" something like $3 after taxes, at least in the provisional setup. That doesn't pay for the time Jason spent to reply in this thread. So no one is getting rich here.
What is the point, then?
Well, for one thing, if you work with the translator again, doesn't it become a bit more interesting for all parties? And for another, if your life becomes a bit easier as a (former) member, wouldn't you appreciate that? That is our job here, you know: to provide tools (like a platform to make your life easier) and opportunities (like novel ways to meet new clients.) This is what we do.
| | | | Ralf Lemster
Germany
Local time: 18:00
English to German
+ ...
| "It has been decided"... | Jul 20, 2009 |
Henry,
As a more general point, PRen and others, if you have specific issues with the way an idea is being pursued, it is more helpful when you express those concerns in such a way that Jason, or whoever is working on a given project, can act on them. Statements like the one above, well, they just don't get anyone anywhere.
Agreed - but only on this specific statement.
Like numerous other contributors to the thread in the CPN forum (which I believe should be made visible to all paying members at least), I voiced concerns about the commodity-like 'pricing' mechanism, and the dangers inherent in the discretionary (more bluntly: forgotten) dispute-handling process on 22 June 2009. In response, Jason's response was that "the decision has been made to simplify this for the time being by using the basic fixed rates", and that "the whole matter will be rethought when we have experience and actual data" (my italics).
I reiterated my concerns, more specifically, on 18 July, focusing on the following issues:
- establishing a discretionary pricing level that, IMO, is way too low;
- why testing workflows was - apparently - impossible without involving actual clients;
- ProZ.com's apparent change of role, acting as a commission-based intermediary; and
- the risks inherent in the missing dispute resolution process.
My points were backed up by several other contributors. Still waiting for an answer - apparently, expressing concerns in a specific manner won't get us anywhere either.
Regards,
Ralf
| | | | Uldis Liepkalns
Latvia
Local time: 19:00
Member (2003)
English to Latvian
+ ...
| Yes, I have a concern | Jul 20, 2009 |
Henry D wrote:
As a more general point, PRen and others, if you have specific issues with the way an idea is being pursued, it is more helpful when you express those concerns in such a way that Jason, or whoever is working on a given project, can act on them. Statements like the one above, well, they just don't get anyone anywhere.
Hi Henry,
6.4 - How is invoicing handled? [Direct link]
At this time, the system does not collect or issue invoices from translator to client. If your tax authority has specific invoicing requirements, you may not be able to use the turn-key translation service in its current state. If you need an invoice for accounting purposes, you might consider creating an invoice in your system as a placeholder for the transaction.
Yes, I have a question- wold you please mind to give a list of countries, where issuing invoices and reporting incomes is not required by local Tax Authorities? (Mind you, here our Taxes doesn't differentiate much if you have not reported 10 or 1000 bucks, though in my country it's yet a long way to go to reach the Western level, but they at least are trying to introduce this principle).
If you can give such a list, I suggest you limit Turn-key jobs to translators from these countries only. I also can add that filing self composed invoices to ProZ doesn't seem a viable solution to me, at least in the long term.
Uldis
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