| Pages in topic: [1 2 3] > | Sweatshop rates Thread poster: Samuel Murray
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Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 22:04
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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G'day everyone
This question is to everyone who have sweatshop rates in addition to their normal rates. I hope the term "sweatshop rate" is not offensive (I originally wrote "Indian rates"). If you find the whole concept of sweatshop rates offensive, please start a separate thread.
A Far Eastern agency recently contacted me for my rates. The agency seems very professional in its behaviour. The PM is polite and... See more G'day everyone
This question is to everyone who have sweatshop rates in addition to their normal rates. I hope the term "sweatshop rate" is not offensive (I originally wrote "Indian rates"). If you find the whole concept of sweatshop rates offensive, please start a separate thread.
A Far Eastern agency recently contacted me for my rates. The agency seems very professional in its behaviour. The PM is polite and he gets right to the point when necessary. But my usual rate is too high for them -- their suggested rate for me is 30% less than my usual rate.
With some clients, you can negotiate back and forth about the rate, but in this case it seemed clear that their suggested rate is their final offer. In such cases I say "yes" provisionally, for I never know when I might hit a quiet week and they might send me a piece of easy work.
Pardon me for stereotyping, but I find that clients in developed countries who offer very low rates are often also unprofessional and generally difficult to deal with. So lower rate = lower level of professionalism, at least in developed countries. In sweatshop countries, however, a lower rate does not necessarily equate to less professionalism -- in fact, one often finds that these agencies are very efficient at what they do, and can be a pleasure to deal with, even if their rates are lower and their payment terms are longer. What is your experience?
I have a standard usual rate for clients and agencies in developed countries. For developing countries, I negotiate ad hoc rates, usually with direct clients only. The logic is that a client in a developing country can't afford developed country rates. But... what do we do about agencies (not direct clients) in developing countries that use their location as a draw card for end-clients from developed countries. I wonder what conditions you who have sweatshop rates would consider acceptable... and also what you call these rates (as "sweatshop" is a term that is unlikely to endear you to such clients).
What are your thoughts? There is no denying that agencies in developing countries have end-clients who are in developed countries, and these agencies pay rates that are much lower than you'd expect from a similar agency in the developed country. Apart from the ethics of the matter, how do you practically deal with it?
I look forward to your responses. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | In my case ... | Jul 1, 2009 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
What are your thoughts? There is no denying that agencies in developing countries have end-clients who are in developed countries, and these agencies pay rates that are much lower than you'd expect from a similar agency in the developed country. Apart from the ethics of the matter, how do you practically deal with it?
I look forward to your responses.
I reply politely, but make a point of stating I simply cannot afford to work for 'sweatshop rates' (yes, using the same term). Sure it falls on deaf ears, but I just don't like leaving emails unanswered. Stupid quirk of mine.
I have a policy of not working outside the EU anyhow -- if a client defaults, I want to be able to drop in unexpectedly, with a bailiff, and not have to travel more than three hours (by plane or otherwise) to do so, so even if the rates were attractive, I wouldn't accept the job anyhow.
Know this isn't possible working out of SA, but this is my approach anyhow.
Cheers
Debs
| | | | Rod Walters
Japan
Local time: 05:04
Japanese to English
| Not just developing countries | Jul 1, 2009 |
Here in Japan, we have sweatshop operations and white-collar agencies both operating out of Tokyo. The sweatshop operators are pleasant and professional, but they won't negotiate a higher price for PDF or Powerpoint files or highly technical content. The response to negotiation comes in the form of the Skype message "Nope (bow)", which never fails to raise a smile in spite of oneself. Take it or leave it...
There are also companies that operate at both ends of the market, but are ge... See more Here in Japan, we have sweatshop operations and white-collar agencies both operating out of Tokyo. The sweatshop operators are pleasant and professional, but they won't negotiate a higher price for PDF or Powerpoint files or highly technical content. The response to negotiation comes in the form of the Skype message "Nope (bow)", which never fails to raise a smile in spite of oneself. Take it or leave it...
There are also companies that operate at both ends of the market, but are generally careful not to let either end see each other. It does however become apparent after a while. The companies in Japan that offer sweatshop rates have PMs who are clearly not Japanese, while the white-collar agencies might employ foreigners internally, but the PMs are always Japanese.
The white-collar agencies are not noticeably conspicuous on the Blue Board (hence the name I suppose).
I generally try to avoid operating outside of Japan due to the inherent risk of not being able to sit in a non-payer's office in one's gardening clothes, playing low-down blues on one's harp, but I have worked occasionally for white-collar European outfits. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I don't bother | Jul 1, 2009 |
Hey Samuel, I thought you were going to be joining us here in Europe? I hope that works out soon.
Our situations are probably quite different given the differences in demand for our respective language pairs, though perhaps that may change if you add NL some day. Given the enormous demand for DE>EN services, I simply see no reason to deal with sweatshop agencies of any kind no matter where they are located. However, I can imagine that they are indeed more respectable outside the EU,... See more Hey Samuel, I thought you were going to be joining us here in Europe? I hope that works out soon.
Our situations are probably quite different given the differences in demand for our respective language pairs, though perhaps that may change if you add NL some day. Given the enormous demand for DE>EN services, I simply see no reason to deal with sweatshop agencies of any kind no matter where they are located. However, I can imagine that they are indeed more respectable outside the EU, and I don't recall encountering the rudeness that I get from European and US agencies who trawl the sewers with their rate offers.
I don't see any ethical issues here. You work for whatever rate you accept with whomever you choose as a contract partner. You're an adult. If you undersell yourself, that's your problem, and if there simply isn't enough demand at good rates in your pair, you have described one valid option.
I might look at other ways of finding work at good rates, but you're a bright guy and probably follow those discussions more than I do and are more aware of the possibilities that apply to your situation. If you are comfortable with the arrangements you describe, then I don't see any compelling reason to do otherwise. You choose your own risks and accept responsibility for them.
BTW, "sweatshops" usually represent an improvement in living standards for the people working in them, regardless of how appalling you or I might find them. Perhaps not in situations like in China, where one of Cousteau's managers once found workers chained to their sewing machines in a factory making diving suits (they wisely chose to do business elsewhere!), but often enough. Historically, that was the case in the "developed" world as well.
And with today's humidity in Berlin I think I can legitimately call my office a sweatshop.... ▲ Collapse
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| Politely inform them that it does not make any business sense | Jul 1, 2009 |
I tell them politely that unfortunately it would not make any business sense to work for them. If pushed, I also tell them that my clearner would then earn more per hour. UK agencies also offer 'sweatshop' rates by the way and not just because the euro is so strong. I tend to work for agencies that are based on the continent and not for UK agencies.
| | | | Edward Vreeburg
Netherlands
Local time: 22:04
Member (2008)
English to Dutch
+ ...
| Just say "NO" | Jul 1, 2009 |
Why would I want to work for 33% less, simply because "they" cannot afford it?
Sure if it's a manual for something makde "there", I can see "their" point (although they must have done something wrong with their sales plan and forgot in include reasonable rates for translation of the manual....
BUT it's often documents that ORIGINATE from wher I live !!!
I was once offered a document about a new project in the Rotterdam metro/subway by an agency in Taiwan or someth... See more Why would I want to work for 33% less, simply because "they" cannot afford it?
Sure if it's a manual for something makde "there", I can see "their" point (although they must have done something wrong with their sales plan and forgot in include reasonable rates for translation of the manual....
BUT it's often documents that ORIGINATE from wher I live !!!
I was once offered a document about a new project in the Rotterdam metro/subway by an agency in Taiwan or something .... Hey I live in Rotterdam (the Netherlands), what would happen if my clients found out that they can simply contact some dude in Taiwan, Thailand , Litouania or Rumania for that matter and get the same quality by the same translator (namely: Me!) at a 33% discount ??????
It makes no sense !! I would just be killing my own market !!
Even if I do it only once every 2 months when I have nothing else to do!
(imagine if all Dutch translators did the same... they would supply a steady stream of cheap and high quality translations to Sweatshop countries... and clients would only see a huge price difference ...
So, please think before accepting low rates !!!!
===
Ed ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tae Kim
United States
Local time: 13:04
Member (2007)
English to Korean
+ ...
| "Sweatshops" can offer job opportunities for beginners | Jul 1, 2009 |
When I first started out, these "sweatshop" agencies actually provided me much needed work. I got paid .05 cents and sometimes .03 cents at one point or another. I don't work for them anymore now that I have other higher paying customers that I regularly get jobs from, but looking back, I think these "sweatshops" can actually be a good source for translators who are just starting out and needing work badly.
Their rates are not just 30% less, but I think they're about 50% less or e... See more When I first started out, these "sweatshop" agencies actually provided me much needed work. I got paid .05 cents and sometimes .03 cents at one point or another. I don't work for them anymore now that I have other higher paying customers that I regularly get jobs from, but looking back, I think these "sweatshops" can actually be a good source for translators who are just starting out and needing work badly.
Their rates are not just 30% less, but I think they're about 50% less or even more. I have a relative who is just starting out in translation field and he is glad that he's getting jobs from these agencies actually because otherwise he'd go doing nothing. I guess something is better than nothing. So I guess sweatshops indeed have some purpose for providing work to beginners. ▲ Collapse
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| Getting experience and paying for it | Jul 1, 2009 |
Yes. When I started way back in 1975, there was just Insdoc, a Government organization that had panel translators in its rolls. The rate was rock bottom. But then there was not much work in the private sector in then very much socialist India.
I did an enormous amount of work and in my pairs of German/French > English I did much more work than the full-time translators of Insdoc.
I don't regret those days as everything turned out to my advantage and when liberalization... See more Yes. When I started way back in 1975, there was just Insdoc, a Government organization that had panel translators in its rolls. The rate was rock bottom. But then there was not much work in the private sector in then very much socialist India.
I did an enormous amount of work and in my pairs of German/French > English I did much more work than the full-time translators of Insdoc.
I don't regret those days as everything turned out to my advantage and when liberalization struck India I was more than ready to meet the growing translation demands.
And there was no question of being taken advantage of as the same rates were paid to all the panel translators.
Regards,
N. Raghavan
Tae Kim wrote:
When I first started out, these "sweatshop" agencies actually provided me much needed work. I got paid .05 cents and sometimes .03 cents at one point or another. I don't work for them anymore now that I have other higher paying customers that I regularly get jobs from, but looking back, I think these "sweatshops" can actually be a good source for translators who are just starting out and needing work badly. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Claire Cox
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:04
French to English
+ ...
| Definitely sweatshops in the Uk too | Jul 1, 2009 |
I was amazed to see a job advertised on the ProZ Jobs board offering £65 in total for over 1800 words of highly technical French to English (photovoltaics in fact). That works out as the sort of rates I was charging twenty years ago when I first went freelance! I agree totally with Edward that anyone accepting such low rates is only stabbing themselves in the foot in terms of expecting higher paid work in the future and making life difficult for the profession as a whole. We have to behave in a... See more I was amazed to see a job advertised on the ProZ Jobs board offering £65 in total for over 1800 words of highly technical French to English (photovoltaics in fact). That works out as the sort of rates I was charging twenty years ago when I first went freelance! I agree totally with Edward that anyone accepting such low rates is only stabbing themselves in the foot in terms of expecting higher paid work in the future and making life difficult for the profession as a whole. We have to behave in a professional manner to be taken seriously and that means not demeaning our industry by working for a pittance.
[Edited at 2009-07-01 13:21 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | PAS
Local time: 22:04
Polish to English
+ ...
Take the "sweatshop rate", multiply it by your daily output and again by the number of days per month that you work (NO, not 30, but maybe 22 days).
Figure out how many days you could survive into the month with that amount of money.
This is the number of days per month you could work at that rate.
That's my take on the issue.
Best,
Pawel Skalinski
| | | | Edward Vreeburg
Netherlands
Local time: 22:04
Member (2008)
English to Dutch
+ ...
| let's take a second look at that.... | Jul 1, 2009 |
Sweatshops offer fresh translators the chance to gain some experience
or
Sweatshops exploit newbies at rates which are far below the market price..
So as long as there are new translators, there will be sweatshops and there will always be "that lower end market".... So our task is to inform newbies and give them some self-confidence about their work... Train them and take them under our wings, supplying training encouragement and help, advise them and help them in the to... See more Sweatshops offer fresh translators the chance to gain some experience
or
Sweatshops exploit newbies at rates which are far below the market price..
So as long as there are new translators, there will be sweatshops and there will always be "that lower end market".... So our task is to inform newbies and give them some self-confidence about their work... Train them and take them under our wings, supplying training encouragement and help, advise them and help them in the tough world we call translations...
...OK maybe not...
So what is it, why do agencies refuse to take in unexperienced translators?
(or do they?? )
When I see "at least 5 years experience required" - who is going to notice if I have 3, 4 or any experience at all??)
... this is getting complicated... ▲ Collapse
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 22:04
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Offtopic: answer to Kevin | Jul 1, 2009 |
Kevin Lossner wrote:
Hey Samuel, I thought you were going to be joining us here in Europe? I hope that works out soon.
Paperwork takes time. I'll be in NL again from 5 July to 25 September. But my clients don't know that -- they just see my e-mail address and have no idea that I've transferred from a developing to a developed country.
| | | | | Sweatshop rates | Jul 1, 2009 |
Edward Vreeburg wrote:
So what is it, why do agencies refuse to take in unexperienced translators?
(or do they?? )
I can assure you that they do in fact refuse. Nine months since I began looking for translation work following completion of an MA and I am still yet to get a PAID job. UN Volunteers must love me though, when I tell them I will dedicate my life to them if only they give me a chance to get experience.
Sometimes I feel tempted by the sweatshop rates, especially since I have (been forced to take) another job which just about pays my bills. But I think about about the amount of time, effort and money I have put into my education to go and accept 0.01€ per word (yes, I have in fact seen this). I also couldn't bear to think about what this is doing to the profession as a whole.
| | | | Edward Vreeburg
Netherlands
Local time: 22:04
Member (2008)
English to Dutch
+ ...
| worked for 9 months and still not experienced? | Jul 1, 2009 |
Michelle Plaistow wrote:
I can assure you that they do in fact refuse.
Some do, dome don't, if the agency absolutely needs to translate something for a client and their regular translator and backup are on vacation, don't care if you are an alien, as long as the job is done...
You just need a bit of luck...
(and how do they find out you are new? Do you tell them?? Do you put the date of your diploma on your resume? Or do you fail translation tests??
What I am saying is, if you can do a good job, you don't need to volunteer information about your inexperience....
Ed
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