| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | "P" symbol - WHO makes the decision about competence? Thread poster: MariusV
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Williamson 
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:26
Flemish to English
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| Criteria and weighed average. | Mar 14, 2009 |
Not undefined criteria, but defined criteria such as those mentioned above. As somebody noticed in a related posting, at official bodies and international institutions, your "fate" lies in the hands of anonymous professionals, who don't know who the candidate is. They get a text before their nose and have to evaluate that text based upon what is written, not upon an image on a profile page. No possibilities there to shout or to call this nonsense.
You would be disqualified.
Commer... See more Not undefined criteria, but defined criteria such as those mentioned above. As somebody noticed in a related posting, at official bodies and international institutions, your "fate" lies in the hands of anonymous professionals, who don't know who the candidate is. They get a text before their nose and have to evaluate that text based upon what is written, not upon an image on a profile page. No possibilities there to shout or to call this nonsense.
You would be disqualified.
Commercial viability is the translator's own responsibility and should not be an element in judgement. After all, we all sell the transpositon of a text from one language into the other. Isn't that the core product?
[Edited at 2009-03-14 16:33 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | MariusV
Lithuania
Local time: 05:26
English to Lithuanian
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TOPIC STARTER | Let me ask you a simple question | Mar 14, 2009 |
Williamson wrote:
Not undefined criteria, but defined criteria such as those mentioned above. As somebody noticed in a related posting, at official bodies and international institutions, your "fate" lies in the hands of anonymous professionals, who don't know who the candidate is. They get a text before their nose and have to evaluate that text based upon what is written, not upon an image on a profile page. No possibilities there to shout or to call this nonsense.
You would be disqualified.
Commercial viability is the translator's own responsibility and should not be an element in judgement. After all, we all sell the transpositon of a text from one language into the other. Isn't that the core product?
[Edited at 2009-03-14 16:33 GMT]
No one doubts that there are many professionals on proz (and elsewhere). But are you sure the evaluator, say, for my language pairs, who would evaluate my "viability" is a competent person? How you can know that and how Proz can know that? Do you know my language pairs and can you be responsible for the professionalism of the evaluators? Can proz people put their hands to their hearts and tell "We are sure, this person is a real professional, his/her PERSONAL opinion cannot be questioned, and we, Proz, take a full responsibility on the verdict of that evaluator"...??? How they can know that without knowing a word in the target language??? (but they allow to someone to put a "P" sign)...
About what we sell - a client can be happy having even an average quality translation. And this does not necessarily mean that this was done on the highest professional level. Maybe just a so-so quality is OK for them - maybe they simply need a text to be translated as a formality which will never be read by the end user. If the client is happy and pays money for the job it still does not mean that this job is a top-notch. Vice versa - like we have clients for whom we do a high-level stuff, but they are late with payment or do not pay at all (not because of our fault, but because such clients are scams)...
About calling all this nonsense. OK, I can chose another word for this. But I understand that Proz is a community (at least it is called so) and members still have the right to express their opinions, even when such opinions are related with criticism? Shall we only praise Proz? I understand that the core principle of any community is an open talk, an open discussion. Did I breach any rules, did I tell something without keeping the ethics? Even if I get disqualified, I will not bother too much. Because (it is JUST MY OPINION) Proz started to go some wrong way...And within time it is going more and more that wrong way. I noticed many recent changes in Proz which move Proz far away from what it was "The Proz" several years ago (for which I liked it and because of that I chose it as the best sites and communities in comparison to its competitors)...So, you can shoot me down now - go and do it if you like...And I told what I wanted to tell. And even dared to express my critical opinion...I do not care. I am already thinking of better options for self-promotion as Proz does not meet my expectations any longer. Those "Ps", stars and whatever similar else - why do I need all that and why I pay money for that?
[Edited at 2009-03-14 17:23 GMT]
| | | | diana bb
Lithuania
Local time: 05:26
English to Lithuanian
+ ...
| A bit OT - but I am now curious... | Mar 14, 2009 |
...who evaluates translations in Marius' language pairs.
Very curious indeed. Does anybody?
[Redaguota 2009-03-14 16:51 GMT]
[Redaguota 2009-03-14 16:56 GMT]
| | | | Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:26
Flemish to English
+ ...
Outsource the correction of the translation according to standard procedures.
The only place where you are going to find people who can evaluate rare languages, like the Baltic are at the linguistic departments of universities and outsiders working at the EU?? They have proven that they can pass objective exams.
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sarandor
United States
Local time: 22:26
English to Russian
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| More about ATA certification | Mar 14, 2009 |
In my opinion, the evalutaion process for Proz's Pro program is more comprehensive than the one used for ATA's certification. When I took the ATA certification exam back in 2007, first, I had to become a member of ATA (around $160, if I remember correctly), pay for my eligibility to be verified, pay for the exam itself (a few hundred), travel to the place (in another state) where the exam was held (hotel, gas for the car, meals, etc.), pay to file an appeal, and if you want to retake the exam - ... See more In my opinion, the evalutaion process for Proz's Pro program is more comprehensive than the one used for ATA's certification. When I took the ATA certification exam back in 2007, first, I had to become a member of ATA (around $160, if I remember correctly), pay for my eligibility to be verified, pay for the exam itself (a few hundred), travel to the place (in another state) where the exam was held (hotel, gas for the car, meals, etc.), pay to file an appeal, and if you want to retake the exam - pay again. The whole adventure sets you back a few good hundred dollars. The exam itself was a joke, honestly: you are given two texts, a few scraps of paper, pencils, and you can use your own dictionaries, but no access to internet. Who in the world translates like that now? Then your translations are sent to two graders who are translators who passed the examination and who are very much interested in keeping the ATA certified translator club exclusive. So, in no way ATA certification is more fair or more accurate than Proz's Certified Pro. At least here they ask and check your references, collect peer feedback, and you can apply again free of charge. Not a single client ever asked me if I am a member of ATA or ATA-certified. In my case, without the certification ATA membership is useless, and since to get certified is next to impossible, I let the membership expire. Whereas the Proz membership fee has paid itself, not just in monetary terms, many times over. Even without the P-badge. ▲ Collapse
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Galia Williams wrote:
In my case, without the certification ATA membership is useless, and since to get certified is next to impossible, I let the membership expire.
I wouldn't say getting certified is next to impossible. It's a tough test, but it's doable if you put your mind to it.
| | | | Uldis Liepkalns
Latvia
Local time: 05:26
Member (2003)
English to Latvian
+ ...
| Clarification on Baltic languages. | Mar 14, 2009 |
Williamson wrote:
Outsource the correction of the translation according to standard procedures.
The only place where you are going to find people who can evaluate rare languages, like the Baltic are at the linguistic departments of universities and outsiders working at the EU?? They have proven that they can pass objective exams.
No “body” in the whole World (including ATA and like), nor anybody in our 3 countries does certify translators in our language pairs.
Therefore courage of ProZ.com to become the first organization in the whole World to hand out Translators Pro Certifications to Baltic translators (even before our governments or any other body here has started to do it) is admirable indeed. I’m sure these will be widely recognised and admired in all our State institutions, as well as in Brussels and Luxembourg.
About Williamson’s proposals:
As to our “universities” – you’ll scarcely find anybody there who knows what "commercially viable" in ProZ.com or any of its competitors’ context is.
Example from real life- we have regular customers (I changed the brand names) say, Honda and Mitsubishi. All jobs for them are done by teachers of English in our Universities (so called “evening freelancers”). Both clients were absolutely happy with our job until few months ago I myself mixed it up and Honda job was done by a regular Mitsubishi translator and vice versa. Both clients rejected our translations as “terrible”… OK, we made it good by reassigning the jobs to the both clients’ “used” translators, but going by the above example, how on Earth do you imagine anybody in any University can judge what is “commercially viable” and what isn’t???
Regarding the EU – all translators working there have signed Work Agreements, which includes the clause prohibiting them to accept ANY outside work, even in their apartments and outside working hours, otherwise they risk loosing their jobs- which including all benefits brings them more than EUR 4 000 per month. I myself can certify that you cannot get any of them to accept any side jobs – no sane person will accept any small “side job” risking to loose such a primary one. And I do not think that EU itself as a body will be very interested to certify translators of ProZ.com or any of its competitors.
Uldis
| | | | MariusV
Lithuania
Local time: 05:26
English to Lithuanian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | we have already passed the exams | Mar 14, 2009 |
Williamson wrote:
Outsource the correction of the translation according to standard procedures.
The only place where you are going to find people who can evaluate rare languages, like the Baltic are at the linguistic departments of universities and outsiders working at the EU?? They have proven that they can pass objective exams.
We have already passed the exams at the linguistic departments of/at our universities. Diplomas can be a proof. Now you want to say that someone (our former teachers) will examine us again for us to be "suitable" for proz, or, they will certify each other (if they are working as freelancers and are on proz)?
[Edited at 2009-03-14 20:24 GMT]
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Elizabeth Adams
United States
Local time: 19:26
Member (2002)
Russian to English
Kim Metzger wrote: Galia Williams wrote:
In my case, without the certification ATA membership is useless, and since to get certified is next to impossible, I let the membership expire. I wouldn't say getting certified is next to impossible. It's a tough test, but it's doable if you put your mind to it.
The only thing that was hard about the ATA exam was actually writing with a pen!! The texts were much easier than what I translate on an average day. And they seem to choose texts that lend themselves well to using just dictionaries and don't require you to do an internet search to find out what a specific widget is called in a particular industry.
| | | | | To P or not to P, that's the question | Mar 14, 2009 |
Kim Metzger wrote: Galia Williams wrote:
In my case, without the certification ATA membership is useless, and since to get certified is next to impossible, I let the membership expire. I wouldn't say getting certified is next to impossible. It's a tough test, but it's doable if you put your mind to it.
I am an ATA-Certified EN>ES Translator. I joined ATA in 2003 and a couple of months later I passed the exam on my first try. Since then, the first contact I had with maybe up to about 90% of my current clients was an email saying: “We found your name in the ATA website …”. What I annually pay to ATA to maintain my membership and certification represents maybe 0.2 to 0.3% of the gross income I obtain from clients I got because of my ATA membership.
Granted, the test environment is unusual, not the typical one for a translator. And the passing rate is low, 20% of the applicants, the ATA site say. I strongly believe that that low passing rate is mainy due to two factors: (1) taken exams translating from your native language to your foreign language; and (2) lack of testing practice. Before taking the ATA exam I had taken the Bar exam, a three-day, 8-hour each day test, in two states (SC did not recognize certifications from other states when I moved from Texas to South Carolina.) I feed on stress. Passing the ATA exam was a breeze.
When I took the ATA test, I worked straight through the two parts. I finished them in about one and a half hour. I still had the same amount of time to edit them, removing all Spanglish, consulting dictionaries and other books I brought to the exam.
This probably has nothing to do with the merits or demerits of the ProZ's P-program. I consider it a worthwhile project that is going through birthing pains. And one that is badly interpreted by many P-Prozians. I have seen many P-Prozian profiles showing that they are P-certified (which they are, but on a specific pair of languages, in a very specific direction), yet they translate in several pairs without stating that they are not even P-certified for that pair or pairs. In ATA that would be deemed a misrepresentation.
I was invited to be part of the “core group”, during its beta phase, when we were asked to keep it secret. I even had then and still have a now "good citizenship record”, both inside and outside ProZ (I wouldn’t be able to be a member of two Bar Associations otherwise.) No yellow card here.
I did not join the P-program for several reasons that I consider personal, and correctable. I might even join it in the future, when the program has matured enough to overcome the reasons why I did not join. It may, and likely will happen. As Henry said, ATA certification was not developed in a few months.
Of course, many of the ProZ members that are potentially inductable into the ProZ-P-Hall of Fame, but are not yet there, are we now facing a business decision. It is OK allowing colleagues to get all the advantages they can get from any of the services they get from their ProZ membership. But now, "sour grapes” are mentioned when a member criticizes the P-program. By innuendo, it is being said that not being P-certified but still paying membership dues means having been rejected for some hidden reason.Sime P-Prozians are negating that there may be many reasons why one has not yet applied to thye program.
This is a problem that ProZ management will have to solve for the “children of a lesser God" that are still paying their annual membership, but are not yet P-Prozians. Is the program affecting their professional credibility? Should they keep paying to support a site that implies they are not professionals? Should for them the choice be either the P-way or the highway?
Greetings to all,
Luis
| | | | Elizabeth Adams
United States
Local time: 19:26
Member (2002)
Russian to English
| Interesting Issue | Mar 14, 2009 |
MariusV wrote:
No one doubts that there are many professionals on proz (and elsewhere). But are you sure the evaluator, say, for my language pairs, who would evaluate my "viability" is a competent person? How you can know that and how Proz can know that?
[Edited at 2009-03-14 17:23 GMT]
This is a fascinating question. I don't know the answer. People always make judgments about each other's competence and trustworthiness based on very little information. Think about how you react to job offers that come your way by email: for myself, I can say that there are times I "take to" or trust a person right off the bat based on that first email, and other times when I am less eager to reach out and shake hands. That judgment call can be based on a lot of things, including, I'm afraid, the person's name. In person, we judge people's body language. Online, we judge their writing.
I would be surprised if any graders anywhere are free of all bias and evaluate translations by rote using a rubric. I have not done any grading for Proz.com, but I hope that submissions are anonymous and that they introduce a rubric soon. Alternatively, it might be a good idea to let existing certification bodies keep doing their jobs and limit "Certified PRO" status to people who are already certified. But, as Uldis pointed out, that would continue to marginalize whole language groups.
| | | | | How to fail an exam | Mar 14, 2009 |
Elizabeth Adams wrote:
The only thing that was hard about the ATA exam was actually writing with a pen!! The texts were much easier than what I translate on an average day.
Hi Elizabeth,
I do agree with you here. Yet, one day, I was having lunch with a friend who happens to be a translator, and an outstanding translator at that, I had seen her translations in my pair, and I made the mistake of saying: "Anyone who dare to call himself or herself a translator must be able to pass the ATA exam in the first try." My friend said: "I didn't." I wanted to die. I hated myself for having said that.
So, I tried to identify the reasons why a quality translator as her would not pass the ATA exam, and I have arrived to about the same conclusions as you: "Translators, today, do not use paper and pencil, but a computer." Further, they do not know how to take an exam, stress kills them, not having taken an exam since college.
Best,
Luis
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Paul Cohen
Greenland
Local time: 01:26
German to English
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| What does the "P" program need in order to "mature"? | Mar 14, 2009 |
Luis Arri Cibils wrote:
I did not join the P-program for several reasons that I consider personal, and correctable. I might even join it in the future, when the program has matured enough to overcome the reasons why I did not join. It may, and likely will happen. As Henry said, ATA certification was not developed in a few months.
Very interesting! What, in your opinion, needs to happen for the program to "mature," as you put it? Do you have reservations concerning how applicants are evaluated? Or WHO decides on their abilities? That is, after all, the topic of this thread. Are we talking about fine tuning? Tweaking?
By innuendo, it is being said that not being P-certified but still paying membership dues means having been rejected for some hidden reason. Some P-Prozians are negating that there may be many reasons why one has not yet applied to the program.
I agree. But would you care to elaborate on the reasons, in your opinion, why someone might not want to join the program? Do these relate to the evaluation process?
This is a problem that ProZ management will have to solve for the “children of a lesser God" that are still paying their annual membership, but are not yet P-Prozians. Is the program affecting their professional credibility? Should they keep paying to support a site that implies they are not professionals? Should for them the choice be either the P-way or the highway?
Absolutely! When a program like this is introduced, it has a knock-on effect among those who remain outside. P-way or the highway indeed!
| | | | Uldis Liepkalns
Latvia
Local time: 05:26
Member (2003)
English to Latvian
+ ...
| The very intersting point is that it doesn't marginalize all of them | Mar 14, 2009 |
Elizabeth Adams wrote:
But, as Uldis pointed out, that would continue to marginalize whole language groups.
We have *heaps* of of Peed members in Baltic language groups and no existing mods, nor me- a very recent ex-mod, nor Localization teams can make it out how it so happened and what the .. is going on.
Of course, if ProZ accepts all certifications produced via Photoshop, no problem, by my first education I'm a graphic designer, in less than an hour per country I could supply all local communities with all certifications needed. I can also add that no diplomas issued before independence can be verified at all even there locally (all Russian times records are either missing at all or are so messed up...).
Therefore I reiterate Diana's question:
"who evaluates translations in Marius' language pairs.
Very curious indeed. Does anybody?"
I add from myself: What are the procedures? What are documental bases? Yes- and who does it? I know personally most of Baltic best/leading translators- nobody admits he has evaluated anyone. While some, whose knowledge of native language was long disputed by mods and community, now sports these P's.
Uldis
| | | | Elizabeth Adams
United States
Local time: 19:26
Member (2002)
Russian to English
Uldis Liepkalns wrote:
Of course, if ProZ accepts all certifications produced via Photoshop, no problem, by my first education I'm a graphic designer, in less than an hour per country I could supply all local communities with all certifications needed.
Very good point. Is Proz accepting scanned certificates, or do they have to come directly from the issuing association?
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