| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15] > | We MUST quote in low-price jobs with OUR prices! Thread poster: Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
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| I know, I know... | Jan 29, 2009 |
Aniello Scognamiglio wrote:
In the past I did quote many times on adequate jobs, but in most cases I was either too late or not "cheap" enough.
Thanks for your comment Aniello. Yes, I know, I know... We would quote just for the good of the profession and to have some initiative correcting low rates. It might be hard, but... how long does it take to send a brief quote asking to be contacted if the customer is ready to pay your price? It will surely do no harm, and probably a lot of good among new outsourcers who might get a wrong idea of the market.
| | | | jacana54 (X) 
Uruguay
English to Spanish
+ ...
| It IS important to think collectively | Jan 29, 2009 |
Alan R King wrote:
Freelancers tend to go it alone and act independently on such matters. Ours is not a workers' trade-union-type professional culture. And your suggestion would, I suspect, be almost too obvious to people who do live in that sort of culture. People, that is, who are used to thinking collectively as well as individually. By underselling myself I am doing neither myself nor my colleagues a favour, but playing into the hands of those who live by exploiting us. It is easy to get lazy or indifferent about this, but it reflects short-sightedness.
A few days ago there was a posting for just over 60 words, which required the job to be done for free or for a very small fee, and promising to keep the selected translator on the agency's database " and use again possibly if you impress". Several language pairs, an agency with excellent BB rating. Nonetheless, the language irritated me. I answered in three lines, under the title "Every job deserves the same attention" and quoted what I explained is my minimum hourly rate (which is quite low, due to the rate of exchange). There were 169 quotes.
Needless to say I didn't get the job, but I don't know if it was because other translators with a better CV offered the same rate, or simply because everybody else accepted to do it for free. Another thought is that I usually need more than 65 words to be impressed by any of the texts that I read.
So what Alan says is basic: people who lower their prices systematically and recklessly are hurting all the others. We absolutely must think and act collectively. At the same time, I know this isn't easy because we live and work in very different realities.
Anyway, I liked your idea, Tomás.
L
| | | | Speranza
Local time: 08:22
Spanish to Russian
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While the number of bids is visible to all, their content, including the rates, remains private. A new outsourcer or an inexperienced freelancer trying to figure out what rates are OK for the market will only see that one-peanut-per-word offers generate sufficient response. How will they interpret that? Will they assume that everybody protests? Frankly I don't think so.
An obvious way to solve the problem and yet protect everybody's privacy is to publish the average rate offered by ... See more While the number of bids is visible to all, their content, including the rates, remains private. A new outsourcer or an inexperienced freelancer trying to figure out what rates are OK for the market will only see that one-peanut-per-word offers generate sufficient response. How will they interpret that? Will they assume that everybody protests? Frankly I don't think so.
An obvious way to solve the problem and yet protect everybody's privacy is to publish the average rate offered by the bidders, but I doubt it will be done since ProZ is apparently moving in the opposite direction. Many years ago bids were public in their entirety and it was often a lot of fun. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Quote counts are already very high | Jan 29, 2009 |
Nadejda Vega Cespedes wrote:
While the number of bids is visible to all, their content, including the rates, remains private. A new outsourcer or an inexperienced freelancer trying to figure out what rates are OK for the market will only see that one-peanut-per-word offers generate sufficient response. How will they interpret that? Will they assume that everybody protests? Frankly I don't think so.
Thanks for your point of view Nadejda. I think that if 200 people quote today in a job worth 1,2 cents per word, seeing 210-220 quotes, of which 10-20 at a reasonable price, would do no harm.
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| Problem for non-paying members | Jan 29, 2009 |
I just realised that there's a small problem for non-paying members: we have to pay (with either cash or BrowniZ) in order to be able to quote. So if I quote on all these low-priced jobs, I won't be able to quote when one of those rare well-paid jobs comes up...
| | | | Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 09:22
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
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| Survival of the fittests | Jan 29, 2009 |
I nowadays never react to job offers on the net. And hardly ever even to direct mail from non-EU countries. I'm not going to support job exporting to low-wage or low-currency countries. If a EU client employs cheap agencies we should not support this by helping out.
I don't believer agencies do not know the proper price of services. So reacting to sub-standard offers will not help to educate anyone, I'm afraid.
Regards
Heinrich
| | | | | No, we mustn't | Jan 29, 2009 |
Nadejda, we are alone against the world!
I have thought to do that several times, but I am not sure it were a good idea. I don't think it would educate zookeepers (the perfect word for them, Kevin). Although they get 300 quotes offering a fair rate for a good translation, they will also get 30 quotes willing to do it for peanuts, and they will think "great, there are people who will do it almost for nothing, we will continue offering this rate". If I want to buy an old used Seat Pan... See more Nadejda, we are alone against the world!
I have thought to do that several times, but I am not sure it were a good idea. I don't think it would educate zookeepers (the perfect word for them, Kevin). Although they get 300 quotes offering a fair rate for a good translation, they will also get 30 quotes willing to do it for peanuts, and they will think "great, there are people who will do it almost for nothing, we will continue offering this rate". If I want to buy an old used Seat Panda (a cheap car sold in Spain), knowing that there are a lot of much better and expensive cars will not dissuade me from buying that one.
Now, think for a moment what unexperienced translators would think when they see that 330 translators quoted for a 0.02 per word offer: "if I want to work as a translator, I need to do it for peanuts, everybody do so", that's what they would think.
We will never educate the zookeepers; as far as they always find one single translator who charge what they want to pay, they would not care if there are millions charging ten times more. But you can educate other translators, and to see 330 quotes for a 0.02 per word work is not the best way.
¡Salud!
Ignacio Vicario Esteban
[Edited at 2009-01-29 20:26 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
I think all outsourcers - maybe everybody, paying or not - should have access to all these average market rates.
I second that. Those lovely little distribution charts should be available to all - this might encourage some to move out of the lower tail of the distribution. Or not.
Regarding zookeepers... I think these people Kevin is referring to are not the actual zookeepers, but escaped gorillas wearing zookeeper's uniforms.
Or the baboons. Gorillas are much too polite generally.
[Edited at 2009-01-29 20:58 GMT]
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Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 08:22
Italian to English
In memoriam | Why the heck should I quote on a low-price job? | Jan 29, 2009 |
Hi Tomás,
I really cannot see the point in quoting on low-priced jobs.
All of my work comes either from existing customers who are satisfied with my previous projects or new customers who have been recommended by them.
If somebody wants a quote from me on a job and stipulates a price in advance, I treat the message as spam, and it gets binned along with the penis extension, breast enhancement and debt consolidation offers that Pegasus filters out for me ev... See more Hi Tomás,
I really cannot see the point in quoting on low-priced jobs.
All of my work comes either from existing customers who are satisfied with my previous projects or new customers who have been recommended by them.
If somebody wants a quote from me on a job and stipulates a price in advance, I treat the message as spam, and it gets binned along with the penis extension, breast enhancement and debt consolidation offers that Pegasus filters out for me every time I check my mail.
Please, everyone, try to remember that we are writers, not transposers of set linguistic formulae into somebody else's mother tongue. Writing is why anyone bothers to pay us at all.
Best,
Giles ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sandra B.
Portugal
Local time: 07:22
English to Portuguese
+ ...
I do that whenever it is posted a job I would be interested in doing it but the rates are too low. Of course that I never get the job, or I get emails like I just got today saying that the job was assigned to a translator with lower rates.
There will always be people willing to work for very low rates, so these agencies will always get people to do the jobs. They are not interested at all in quality. Hopefully, in the medium/long term, they will suffer the consequences of this pract... See more I do that whenever it is posted a job I would be interested in doing it but the rates are too low. Of course that I never get the job, or I get emails like I just got today saying that the job was assigned to a translator with lower rates.
There will always be people willing to work for very low rates, so these agencies will always get people to do the jobs. They are not interested at all in quality. Hopefully, in the medium/long term, they will suffer the consequences of this practice. ▲ Collapse
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I want to share some comments with you:
1- First of all, is there an accurate table showing average rates for translation, proofreading, voice-over, interpretation (with all their varieties) here in Proz? Please, tell me where is it or let's create one!
2- I work as a freelancer and as an outsourcer as well. From my point of view as an outsourcer, let me tell you that sometimes clients are very precise and work with a fixed budget, and many times I post ads on Proz with... See more I want to share some comments with you:
1- First of all, is there an accurate table showing average rates for translation, proofreading, voice-over, interpretation (with all their varieties) here in Proz? Please, tell me where is it or let's create one!
2- I work as a freelancer and as an outsourcer as well. From my point of view as an outsourcer, let me tell you that sometimes clients are very precise and work with a fixed budget, and many times I post ads on Proz with certain features, timing and fixed rates, stating that "please, do not quote if you are not planning to adjust to these requirements; we can't waste time, etc.", and still it's really disappointing to see that several transaltors don't read (or don't want to read) and put their own conditions which definitely don't match those being asked. Not only they waste my time, but also gives them a very bad reputation because they do not comply with the requirements and still quote on a job. Translators should be good very readers too, so even if I had extra money to pay them, I wouldn't because that means they are not good readers, and probably would not read well my to-be-translated document either. They are automatically rejected and won't be ever contacted.
3- Does it matter where in the world you live? Proz has a "Rate calculator" feature, which I try every year to see how much should I charge per word in order to make a living. I add every single thing they ask for, all my expenses, including insurance, transportation, food, services, holidays, outings, rent, private school, the expenses of my two children, etc., etc. I even cheat a bit because I do it as if I was the only one at home earning a living (and here my husband works too). According to this Rate calculator, which I believe is quite accurate, I should be charging US$ 0.04 per word in order to cover all these costs, and so I try to do that. If I get more than that, nice, but I don't want to start charging US$ 0.10 just because I want to become a millionaire.
4- I strongly believe that the most expensive isn't always the best. I won't buy a pair of Levis jeans for US$80 (cause they say they are the best), if I can buy a pair of jeans XX brand which costs me US$ 30 and is very nice and comfortable. In the same way, I think that there are very good, very experienced and very accurate translators out there, that do not charge much for translations. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 09:22
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
| A Filter perhaps | Jan 30, 2009 |
On Proz each freelance translator should have a feature in the profile like: "Ready to except outsourcer's rates". Then the automatic mail of people like Cristina from Peru would not arrive at the mailbox of translators who have not checked this alternative.
Or it should be possible for outsourcers to distinguish translators from low-income countries. So when some agency from Latin-America is searching for a translator German-Finnish they would be able to restrict the search to translator... See more On Proz each freelance translator should have a feature in the profile like: "Ready to except outsourcer's rates". Then the automatic mail of people like Cristina from Peru would not arrive at the mailbox of translators who have not checked this alternative.
Or it should be possible for outsourcers to distinguish translators from low-income countries. So when some agency from Latin-America is searching for a translator German-Finnish they would be able to restrict the search to translators living in Latin-America.
Well, maybe too complicated. Better ignore those offers.
Regards
Heinrich ▲ Collapse
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| "Tight budget" | Jan 30, 2009 |
Cristina Heraud-van Tol wrote:
2- I work as a freelancer and as an outsourcer as well. From my point of view as an outsourcer, let me tell you that sometimes clients are very precise and work with a fixed budget, and many times I post ads on Proz with certain features, timing and fixed rates...
Cristina, exactly these "tight budgets" or "fixed budgets" we read about so often are something I don't quite understand. How do they calculate the "fixed budget"? On what average rate do they base their "fixed budget"? Who taught them that a translation into Spanish should cost 0.03 US$ per source word and not 0.12, 0.20 or 0.50, for that matter?
A translation should cost what it costs, and we transators should make a better living than the average Starbucks employee. Don't you agree?
If a customer came to me and said: "Hey Tomás, we can only pay 3 cents per word because of the tight budget", I would say: "Then your budget is too tight for a human translation. Get an automatic translation tool!!"
| | | | Mónica Algazi
Uruguay
Local time: 03:22
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
| Agree with Tomás | Jan 30, 2009 |
Or rather, I could not agree more with Tomás!
| | | | | The Soviet Rate Calculator | Jan 30, 2009 |
Cristina Heraud-van Tol wrote:
3- Does it matter where in the world you live? Proz has a "Rate calculator" feature, which I try every year to see how much should I charge per word in order to make a living. I add every single thing they ask for, all my expenses, including insurance, transportation, food, services, holidays, outings, rent, private school, the expenses of my two children, etc., etc. I even cheat a bit because I do it as if I was the only one at home earning a living (and here my husband works too). According to this Rate calculator, which I believe is quite accurate, I should be charging US$ 0.04 per word in order to cover all these costs, and so I try to do that. If I get more than that, nice, but I don't want to start charging US$ 0.10 just because I want to become a millionaire.
Honestly Cristina, that calculator is an absolute joke. I think Stalin designed it.
- "Percent of working hour spent translating:" The less time you spend actually translating, the more you can earn!
- "Average words translated per hour:" The more words per hour you can make, the lower your income.
If you manage to do more words per hour (e.g. because you generally work in a topic you know very well, have good tools or are a fast typer), why the hell should you have a lower rate? I don't get it. If we are in a socialist economy, please let me know! I might apply for a job at Starbucks instead of striving to become a better translator.
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