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vychovne prostredie, z ktoreho vysiel: inteligencia
11:48 Nov 29, 2012
This question was closed without grading. Reason: Errant question
Slovak to English translations [PRO] Social Sciences - Social Science, Sociology, Ethics, etc.
Slovak term or phrase:vychovne prostredie, z ktoreho vysiel: inteligencia
This is one of the information points on a zapisnica o vysluchu obvineneho. The prior points have to do with education and the ensuing ones are military in nature. What I don't get is the 'inteligencia'. To what does this pertain? Is it literal, like oh her parents were intellectuals? Or is it maybe a borrowed word for 'rozviedka' (although I've never heard it called that in Slovak)? Because if it has to do with the family background I find it silly in that if the parents didn't have degrees would they have written 'unintelligent' or something evern worse? I can't make heads or tails of it and have no idea how to make this intelligible in English. All suggestions welcomed and thank you in advance.
Hello Nathaniel, I am very sorry, but I am afraid you make a mistake when you assume that somebody at the current Slovak police could be facetious. You probably did not have much of a personal experience with the Slovak police yet, did you? :-) In my repeated experience, there is absolutely no way of joking with or at the police here in Slovakia.
but I think I have to close this question without grading it, it does seem that the person was being facetious so there's not actually any term I could post in the glossary. And Hannah I appreciate your research as well as your ethics on this discussion.
Hannah Geiger (X)
United States
Juro
06:25 Nov 30, 2012
I think you did not understand me well. I never meant it in the way in which you are describing it. I would hope that others have not understood my comments the same way as you have, at the moment it does not appear so.
Hannah, I am sorry but you are wrong in your saying that "intelligentsia in the older times were leaders of the society as to their influence". Unfortunatelly not, they were not - it was the working class who was supposed to rule and in fact indeed was ruling the country! (I remember my fathers story about the first nominated mayor in our town after comunists took over the power in 1948 - he could not read and write!!!) And it still is - in my personal opinion - also today in this poor country! Just look at the results of socialists (many of them are former communists) in recent elections! :-(
by reading the http:// en.wikipedia.og/wiki/Intelligentsia, pls., scroll down to "Russian Marxist's perspective (first 2 parg. ) and scroll more down to " Broder usage " 1st sentence or whole paragraph. You might get the idea. Also, as you postet more info, I would say, this young "man" he try to be "smart" and the meaning of his expression is : "co-called " intelligentsia. If not, perhaps you might considere upper middle class or intelectual. My opinion.
I may be overthinking this but - the document I'm translating is less than 3 years old, the person giving the testimony is certainly of an age where the intelligentsia generation could be applied and if it goes to their frame of mind, the person came to the interview with a prepared statement and according to the transcript the detective never asked any question, the person handed in a statement of - get this - nearly 6 A4 pages of solid text, I mean no indents or double spaces or new paragraphs. Which leads me to believe my suspicion might be true. I'm inclined to leave it as is and back off my first opinion of white collar or something similar. I think this will be important to the English speaker reading it. I'll wait till I reach the end, which with this text may take eons!
Hannah Geiger (X)
United States
16:18 Nov 29, 2012
Here is a fascinating but rather equivocal (for your purposes) link
By convention, Marxist theorists subdivide the intelligentsia into the creative (writers, artists, and journalists), the professional (lawyers, educators, physicians, civil servants, and party bureaucrats), and the technical (engineers). Insofar as one might speak of the intelligentsia as an elite, they are the group that has undergone the most drastic change since 1945. Capitalist entrepreneurs and the clergy were obvious and early victims of shifts in the political spectrum. Although their individual fates varied, party membership was a prerequisite for civil servants, the police, military officers, and educators who wished to continue in their chosen fields. http://www.mongabay.com/history/czechoslovakia/czechoslovaki...
Anyway, I would almost be inclined to leave it as’ intelligentsia’, unless you have some other text or circumstances – especially if the context appears unclear
Hannah Geiger (X)
United States
16:06 Nov 29, 2012
well, this would have to be really placed to time, which is not given, and I don't know if you have it. If this was pre-1990 and he was born, let's say, in 1968, it might express a bit of political views of his family he might have wanted to convey, hard to say. I guess one would have to know more about his other expressions, if he is defiant but wishes to give certain clues to the past, also the nature of his crime would help, should this be instrumental to the understanding of the text - by that I mean that in 1968 or similar this would, might, mean that they were anti-regime etc.
I just had a thought - I don't know how it works when you're a defendant in a crime in Slovakia, but the first page seems to be extracted from a form the defendant maybe filled out himself, in which case is it possible that on this question he was just being a wiseass with the cops? I mean, you might answer this question with something like 'loving home' or 'foster home' but I just can't imagine you'd say 'inteligencia' as a serious response? I'm reaching, but it makes a difference to my translation!
Actually, you're right and I apologise if I've offended you. This discussion is very mild compared to some of the insults rendered on others. I usually come here to get a better understanding of the source term and I don't always get the best answer but I can at least get and understanding and then find a fitting term. But I've also found some brilliant answers here, so it all works. People seem to tend to be very rude on forums instead of being helpful as they should be. Luckily this was not the case here. Bravo and thank you all for your input.
Hannah Geiger (X)
United States
13:47 Nov 29, 2012
it is not a matter of agreement, just of understanding it and finding the right expression. I had no idea that this was recent. But you must use what is appropriate for you. Sorry, being the only Czech here, sorry if I have made the discussion "escalated", but sometimes discussions are very productive.
While this discussion has escalated as is typical for the Slovak and Czech language forums, this is taken from a recent police interrogation where I assume, as is the case in other situations, they sometimes use archaic terminology. And my opinion is (and this is just my opinion, choose not to agree) using the term inteligentsia sounds too Orwellian. It's real life and not literature. I don't know, but from the context I am inclined to go for white collar, the person just didn't come from a 'disadvantaged' background where we'd assume a lack of education, be it higher or otherwise. Can we agree?
Hannah Geiger (X)
United States
13:30 Nov 29, 2012
Michal, psala jsem ve stejnou dobu jako vy, omluva, chápu, viz výše
Hannah Geiger (X)
United States
13:28 Nov 29, 2012
I also gather that, if it was during communism, this might mean sort of "enemy of the state"....not the comrades, champions of work, whatever, but that is a guess, simply that it might have been used in a derogatory way to distinguish from the "hrdina socialistické práce" JUST A GUESS
ja si myslím, že až tak ďaleko do histórie nemusíme ísť. Ak je to naozaj zo socíku, tak treba len ukázať rozdiel medzi dvomi triedami, ktoré sme vtedy mali. Buď to bola robotnícka trieda, alebo to bola pracujúca inteligencia - vrátane napr. vojakov, obyčajných úradníkov, a pod.
nejskor mi islo o vystihnutie vyrazu. Samozrejme ze je to napr.; social environment he/she was raised / brought up to... teda nie v zanedbanom prostredi ....
Hannah Geiger (X)
United States
13:22 Nov 29, 2012
One more note: I think that this distinction is quite important today when it no longer carries the same connotations, by that I mean that intelligentsia in the older times were leaders of the society as to their influence, which, of course, is not true today, IMO
Hannah Geiger (X)
United States
13:16 Nov 29, 2012
Pardon me, but I think that white collar worker and blue collar worker means a difference between, e.g. an office person and a factory person, etc. intelligencia goes further, in my view, it means to me the intellectual eschalon of the society, the academic milieu, etc., i.e. writers, scholars, an environment when a child is exposed to books, music, art, travel etc. So Maria is, I think, quite close to it, but she has not translated the whole sentence, something to the effect that he was brought up in an academic, intellectual environment, elite intellectual class, or comes from an academically-oriented environment etc.
Zrejme ide o niečo staršie - za socíku sme mali robotnícku triedu a pracujúcu inteligenciu. Ja by som to preložil ako "higher education", alebo "white collars" - podľa ostatného kontextu.
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
33 mins confidence: peer agreement (net): +2
family educational background: white collars
Explanation: or parents with higher education
Michal Zugec Slovakia Local time: 15:29 Native speaker of: Slovak
52 mins confidence: peer agreement (net): +1
intelectual class
Explanation: intelectual class-educated middle class
white colar-professional workers whose jobs generally do not involve manuala labor or the wearing of a uniform or work clothes
intelligentsia- (from R.l)- is a social class of people engaged in complex mental labour aimed at disseminating culture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligentsia takto sa to pouzivalo "za sociku" ako pise Michal len s rozdielom "spelovania"
ale vy pisete parents " didn't have degree", to znamena ze nemali ziadne vzdelanie ? Nejake predsa museli mat (zakladne) a v tom pripade je to ako uvadzam higher education, to tiez nie je, nakolko higher education v USA je po skonceni strednej skoly
Maria Chmelarova Local time: 10:29 Native speaker of: Slovak PRO pts in category: 8
Notes to answerer
Asker: I was only using the degree issue as an example, I have no idea of their education and it's not stated in the document. I was just speaking out loud, so to speak, about how to work out the meaning in the given context :)
Asker: But in any case I don't think this fits the bill
family and educational background he came from: intellectual
Explanation: v principe suhlasim s Misom, toto je vsak podla mna presnejsi preklad povodneho textu. Vsimol som si aj Vasu diskusiu o termine "(pracujuca) inteligencia" A mozete mi kludne verit, ze policajt mal na mysli prave tento socialisticky termin, ked to pisal :-), lebo v tychto kategoriach uvazuju dodnes. Doposial su pre nich (najma velky) podnikatelia nepracujuci = vykoristujuci triedni nepratelia a Americania nepriatelski kapitalisti a imperialisti, tomu verte :-) Mozno sa po revolucii vela ludi v slovenskej policii uz vymenilo, no kolektivne zmyslanie aj mladsej generacie sucasnych padesiatnikov a starsich, ktory mali odsluzenych za komunizmu 10 a viac rokov sa odvtedy velmi nezmenilo. Ich filozofia, postoj k ludom a sposoby a metody prace su do velkej miery este nezmenene. Mam s nimi dost osobnych skusenosti. Spytajte sa vsak kohokolvek na Slovensku, vacsina ludi Vam to potvrdi.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 17 hrs (2012-11-30 05:06:46 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
a takmer som zabudol - jasne, ze suhlasim aj s Mariou
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