do nada inicial

English translation: initial nothingness/void OR knowledge vacuum

20:08 Jul 9, 2007
Portuguese to English translations [PRO]
Social Sciences - Social Science, Sociology, Ethics, etc.
Portuguese term or phrase: do nada inicial
"O que se entende hoje por saúde, doença foi surgindo do nada inicial, isto é, da incompreensão do homem primitivo dos fenómenos que o envolviam."
Daisymiller
Local time: 16:14
English translation:initial nothingness/void OR knowledge vacuum
Explanation:
sugg

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 55 mins (2007-07-09 21:03:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

( this statement really bothered me, not on a translation level, but just what it's implying about "primitive" peoples and "absolute lack" of knowledge - ugh )

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs (2007-07-10 04:21:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

originally from nothing

The section could read as
"...illness ORIGINALLY emerged FROM NOTHING..."

or you could use "...illness INITIALLY emerged from nothing"
=============
It's too bad things had to get a little "fierce," because I think both jack and richard were trying to help (initially) and made valid comments.

"originally from nothing" - is a correct answer, but jack was addressing the explanation that was given with it.

"...illness ORIGINALLY emerged FROM NOTHING..." - is correct only if the beginning would be something like " what we understand as health and **illness originally emerged**..."

I can see why jack thought it was incorrect, because richard started his excerpt with "illness." At a first glance, it sounds like "Illness originally emerged from nothing..." and not "knowledge emerged..."

I think jack was only trying to help by pointing out what he perceived as a problem in the second part of richard's answer. Not because jack has a need to be "nasty," or "fierce," but because the phrase does read like this and gives this impression.

I am new to the site and I have found most of the Kudoz exchanges to be constructive and the idea of the section itself a very good one, but it will become rotten very easily if we don't take care to maintain a good ambiance, and a collegial harmony, and it's sometimes good to reflect on a comment before hitting the "reply" button, so we don't jump the gun unnecessarily.

I am not interested in a "rat race" for KudoZ points, in any event, and I hope to help others - and if I get noticed for my brilliant translation suggestions on the way ;-) , well, fringe benefits...



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 hrs (2007-07-10 15:43:41 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Richard -Again, Vera. See my comments to Jack - you shouldn't disagree with another peer response in order to promote your own question. Should you?

That is not the question. Who says this was his objective? I don't see any proof of it, quite on the contrary. In fact, I have seen several Kudoz discussions where posters discussed mistakes re suggestions, not to promote their own suggestions, but to highlight and clarify issues.

Why are you suggesting you know his motive and that it is bad and selfish? There are other reasons to comment on what is a perceived mistake (whether you yourself have suggested something or not).

I don't think you should malign someone's intention and/or comment because you fail to grasp that people here can often have ethics underlying their commentary and their corrections. So far, that's what I've seen you do in this exchange and I don't agree with it.

Selected response from:

veratek
Brazil
Local time: 12:14
Grading comment
I've decided to use initial nothingness, which I think in this case is closer to the original and sounds Ok to me...Other answers were also good. It is in fact knowledge that emerges from nothing, which I think Richard understood quite well! ... I was a bit unsure about using "nothing" only or "initial nothingness"... Many thanks!
:)
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +2initial nothingness/void OR knowledge vacuum
veratek
4 +1from nothing
jack_speak
4a bare slate/tabula rasa
Muriel Vasconcellos
4originally from nothing
R-i-c-h-a-r-d
4from the inaugural nothingness
rhandler
4emerged from non-existence
Denise Miranda


Discussion entries: 2





  

Answers


1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
emerged from non-existence


Explanation:
That's another option, though I like Jack's.

Denise Miranda
Local time: 12:14
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in PortuguesePortuguese
PRO pts in category: 8
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
from the inaugural nothingness


Explanation:
Another possibility to fit your style and context.

rhandler
Local time: 12:14
Works in field
Native speaker of: Portuguese
PRO pts in category: 52
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
from nothing


Explanation:
It is the knowledge that has emerged from nothing.

I suggest:
"What is known today about health and sickness has arisen from nothing, that is, from primitive man's incomprehension of the phenomena that surrounded him."

"At the same time": the simultaneous occurrence of true knowledge of who we are, .... to the problem of how knowledge or anything can come from nothing. ..."
http://www.inexpressible.com/claim.html



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 horas (2007-07-10 03:00:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Please take note:
I deliberately left out the word "inicial," in the translation because in teh English-language construct, it is superfluous-- it is confusing in English because it is unnecessary and obvious.

Example sentence(s):
  • "Did the cosmos arise from nothing? - Mysteries of the Universe ...Physicists and philosophers seem to agree that one of the universe’s biggest mysteries is the mere fact of our existence."
  • "Descartes contends, two corollaries follow, namely, “that something cannot arise from nothing, and also ..."

    Reference: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3077375/
    Reference: http://books.google.com/books?id=bM_obyl9V-QC&pg=PA178&lpg=P...
jack_speak
Local time: 11:14
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Carla Queiro (X)
1 hr
  -> Obrigado, Carla! Much appreciated! Ate' logo.
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

20 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
initial nothingness/void OR knowledge vacuum


Explanation:
sugg

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 55 mins (2007-07-09 21:03:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

( this statement really bothered me, not on a translation level, but just what it's implying about "primitive" peoples and "absolute lack" of knowledge - ugh )

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs (2007-07-10 04:21:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

originally from nothing

The section could read as
"...illness ORIGINALLY emerged FROM NOTHING..."

or you could use "...illness INITIALLY emerged from nothing"
=============
It's too bad things had to get a little "fierce," because I think both jack and richard were trying to help (initially) and made valid comments.

"originally from nothing" - is a correct answer, but jack was addressing the explanation that was given with it.

"...illness ORIGINALLY emerged FROM NOTHING..." - is correct only if the beginning would be something like " what we understand as health and **illness originally emerged**..."

I can see why jack thought it was incorrect, because richard started his excerpt with "illness." At a first glance, it sounds like "Illness originally emerged from nothing..." and not "knowledge emerged..."

I think jack was only trying to help by pointing out what he perceived as a problem in the second part of richard's answer. Not because jack has a need to be "nasty," or "fierce," but because the phrase does read like this and gives this impression.

I am new to the site and I have found most of the Kudoz exchanges to be constructive and the idea of the section itself a very good one, but it will become rotten very easily if we don't take care to maintain a good ambiance, and a collegial harmony, and it's sometimes good to reflect on a comment before hitting the "reply" button, so we don't jump the gun unnecessarily.

I am not interested in a "rat race" for KudoZ points, in any event, and I hope to help others - and if I get noticed for my brilliant translation suggestions on the way ;-) , well, fringe benefits...



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 hrs (2007-07-10 15:43:41 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Richard -Again, Vera. See my comments to Jack - you shouldn't disagree with another peer response in order to promote your own question. Should you?

That is not the question. Who says this was his objective? I don't see any proof of it, quite on the contrary. In fact, I have seen several Kudoz discussions where posters discussed mistakes re suggestions, not to promote their own suggestions, but to highlight and clarify issues.

Why are you suggesting you know his motive and that it is bad and selfish? There are other reasons to comment on what is a perceived mistake (whether you yourself have suggested something or not).

I don't think you should malign someone's intention and/or comment because you fail to grasp that people here can often have ethics underlying their commentary and their corrections. So far, that's what I've seen you do in this exchange and I don't agree with it.



veratek
Brazil
Local time: 12:14
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8
Grading comment
I've decided to use initial nothingness, which I think in this case is closer to the original and sounds Ok to me...Other answers were also good. It is in fact knowledge that emerges from nothing, which I think Richard understood quite well! ... I was a bit unsure about using "nothing" only or "initial nothingness"... Many thanks!
:)
Notes to answerer
Asker: thanks Vera for making things clear...


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  cristina estanislau
1 min
  -> Thanks, Cristina.

agree  Amy Duncan (X): initial nothingness...good!
51 mins
  -> Thanks, Amy.
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22 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
originally from nothing


Explanation:
My original suggestion, reposted.

R-i-c-h-a-r-d
Brazil
Local time: 12:14
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 48
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

2 days 23 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
a bare slate/tabula rasa


Explanation:
I realize that the question is closed, but none of the answers rings quite true to me. I believe that's the advantage to leaving a question open for a while - it stirs the creative juices and pulls in more reactions. If an answer is really on target, you have a strong gut feeling about it and most people will agree with it.

So here are my belated comments: I think "nothingness" and "void" are too physical for this case, whicih is about an absence of knowledge, not things., like a bare slate (not "clean slate," which is like starting over again.) "Tabula rasa" is fairly common in English (2,000,000 refs on the Internet) and could be used if it's a sophisticated audience. Otherwise, you could step back and use "bare slate," which is a much less popular expression but certainly exists. to This is how I would handle the whole phrase:

"...a bare slate/tabula rasa - that is, primitive man's complete lack of understanding of the phenomena through which he evolved"

(forgive the sexist language - more time would be needed to work that out)

Examples from the Internet:

Moreover, it is said in this book three [430a1] that **the intellect is like a bare slate**; the Commentator holds that the intellect is ...
spot.colorado.edu/~pasnau/research/sigerdeanima.pdf

understanding, **which in the beginning is like a blank and bare slate. on which nothing. is drawn**, according to the Philosopher, On the Soul, III. ...
www.pvspade.com/Logic/docs/univers.pdf -

Muriel Vasconcellos
United States
Local time: 08:14
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 156
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