Mihi poenarum illi plus quam optarem dederunt. - Parsing Cicero

English translation: They paid a greater penalty than I would have wished.

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Latin term or phrase:	Mihi poenarum illi plus quam optarem dederunt. - Parsing Cicero
English translation:	They paid a greater penalty than I would have wished.
Entered by:	Roland Nienerza

15:51 Jan 9, 2011

Latin to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - History / Cicero, phil. 2.1

Latin term or phrase: Mihi poenarum illi plus quam optarem dederunt. - Parsing Cicero

"Quonam meo fato, patres conscripti, fieri dicam ut nemo his annis viginti rei publicae fuerit hostis qui non bellum eodem tempore mihi quoque indixerit? Nec vero necesse est quemquam a me nominari: vobiscum ipsi recordamini. **Mihi poenarum illi plus quam optarem dederunt**: te miror, Antoni, quorum facta imitere, eorum exitus non perhorrescere."

"To what destiny of mine, O conscript fathers, shall I say that it is owing, that none for the last twenty years has been an enemy to the republic without at the same time declaring war against me? Nor is there any necessity for naming any particular person; you yourselves recollect instances in proof of my statement. **They have all hitherto suffered severer punishments than I could have wished for them**; but I marvel that you, O Antonius, do not fear the end of these men whose conduct you are imitating."
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This is the beginning of Cicero's 2nd Philippic against Marc Anthony. The part in asterisks - **Mihi poenarum illi plus quam optarem dederunt** - is rather unclear for me. I have seen several translations of that part - which are mostly converging in what I have copied here - **They have all hitherto suffered severer punishments than I could have wished for them**. This translation makes sense with what is before and what comes later.

But grammatically it does not make sense for me. "illi" and "mihi" are unclear. For "illi" there are grammatically two readings possible - dat. sing. masc. or nom. plur. masc., with the meanings of either "him" or "them". The translation quoted here has "they", i.e. the nom. plur. masc. version. But for that, "dederunt" should be passive, i.e. "they have been given punishments". But "dederunt" is perf. active. - And in this reading, "mihi" is also quite unclear. It is the dat. of "ego", but it cannot mean "than wished by me" - as "optarem" is finite - "than I have wished".

I saw, as said, three or four En translations like the one quoted here - which for me does not parse. I saw also a similar De version - "Sie haben es härter gebüsst, als es meinem Willen entsprach". But I found one De translation, that seems grammatically correct, but the meaning would be unclear - "Jene haben mir mehr Strafen gegeben, als ich mir wünschte;" ["They gave me more punishments than I had wished for me;"].

Does anyone see a way of construing that part in a way that makes sense and is grammatically sound?

Roland Nienerza KudoZ activity Questions: 105 (1 open) (1 without valid answers) (11 closed without grading) Answers: 689
Local time: 13:01

As a result of my efforts, they paid a greater penalty than I would wish (for myself)

Explanation:
I have no doubt that illi is nom. pl. here. The syntax is straightforward (dare poenam = to pay a penalty, suffer a punishment), but I think the ambiguity lies in wanting to construe mihi both with dederunt and with optarem. The position of mihi is obviously emphatic. I think your cited Eng translations are thinking optassem rather than optarem, although I'd need to check up on that to be certain. Cic. is generalizing from the fate of the executed Catilinarian conspirators--no one, himself included, would wish that fate--Antony, beware! I think your last cited German translation conveys this (to judge by my shaky German).

Selected response from:

Stephen C. Farrand
United States
Local time: 07:01

Grading comment

Thank you, Stephen, for helping me out of my bewilderment. - I should have looked up the dictionary for "poenas dare".
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

Summary of answers provided

4 +1

As a result of my efforts, they paid a greater penalty than I would wish (for myself)

Stephen C. Farrand

4 +1

they suffered to avenge me a bigger punishment than I would wish for

Sandra Mouton

Summary of reference entries provided

Two French versions

Frensp

Discussion entries: 1

Answers

53 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +1

As a result of my efforts, they paid a greater penalty than I would wish (for myself)

Stephen C. Farrand
United States
Local time: 07:01
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 8

Grading comment

Thank you, Stephen, for helping me out of my bewilderment. - I should have looked up the dictionary for "poenas dare".

Notes to answerer

Asker: Hello, Stephen! I am glad that you have joined in on this. Your hint that "mihi" might be emphatic could resolve that hitch. With that the grammar of "optarem" does not matter much, though I have seen for that also another variant "optaram". http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0021%3Aspeech%3D2%3Asection%3D1 I was still very unhappy. not about the plural of illi but of the nominative. I was also surprised with your translation of "dare poenam" - but checking in the dictionary brought out that "poena" is indeed not only punishment, but at the same time has also the meaning of "atonement" and "expiation" (De "Sühne"). My reading "inflict a punishment" comes in Latin out - as I now see - as "poena afficere, multare" or "poenae esse". - So, with "mini" being emphatic, the question can be considered as solved. - Thank you again.

Asker: The De translation that I had quoted would be perfect, if it would have had "Sühne" ("atonement", "expiation") instead of "Strafe" ("punishment"). - The way it is one will have to discard it. It comes btw from a somewhat amateurish undertaking. http://www.latein24.de/index.php?name=Sections&req=viewarticle&artid=867&page=1

Asker: BTW, Stephen. - "As a result of my efforts," would be much more than rendering emphatic "mihi", which should be simply "for me". And of course, the punishments of Catilina and Clovius could hardly have been the results of Cicero's efforts alone.

3 hrs confidence:

peer agreement (net): +1

they suffered to avenge me a bigger punishment than I would wish for

Explanation:
My Lat>Fr dictionary (Gaffiot) indicates "alicui poenam dare" = "to suffer a punishment giving satisfaction to someone" (my English – and probably poor – translation of the French definition) with a direct reference to the beginning of the second Philippic.
This is IMO in line both with the origin of "poena" as "atonement" (as you mentioned) and my experience of the use of "poena" in relation with the punished and the vindicated.

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Note added at 7 hrs (2011-01-09 23:34:32 GMT)
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Here is the definition in French: "poenas dare alicui Cic. Phil. 2,1 subir un châtiment qui donne satisfaction à quelqu'un, qui venge quelqu'un"
"Poena" is definitely not used here IMO in the meaning of "inflict a punishment" but of "suffer a punishment" ie through undergoing the pain of a particular punishment symbolically giving back something that will satisfy and avenge the harm suffered by the victim.

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Note added at 8 hrs (2011-01-10 00:30:47 GMT)
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I am unsure about what you consider established or not. Anyway, my confusion isn't the important thing here. I just hope I was able to help a little. Good luck with Marcus Tullius!

Sandra Mouton
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:01
Works in field
Native speaker of:

French
PRO pts in category: 24

Notes to answerer

Asker: Je regrette que tu n'as pas donné cette explication du dictionnaire en Fr. - C'est un peu surprenant de voir que "poena" peut signifier à la fois "punition" et "pénitence". Mais ça arrive - et ici, avec "dare" c'est bien "pénitence, expiation, amende" qui compte. Mais ça doivent bien être eux, qui subissent la punition, et ce ne sont pas eux qui l'infligent. - J'ai trouvé que pour le sens "infliger une punition" les verbes latins seraient "afficere, multare" et poena seraient à l'ablatif [bien qu'ici, avec le génitif partitif, les deux cas, acc. et abl., puissent être lus].

Asker: Yes, sure. - But those, who "suffered the punishment" are, as becomes now clear, Cicero's ennemies. - Your answer would be correct without "to avenge me". - The way it stands now the one who suffered the punishment would be Cicero himself. And that does neither suit the context nor does it, as now established, square with the dictionary.

Asker: Thank you again for your input.

Reference comments

55 mins

Reference: Two French versions

Reference information:
Perhaps these could shed some extra light:

"... ils sont tous présents à votre mémoire, et **leur fin déplorable m'a vengé plus que je ne l'aurais voulu** ..."

"... Il n'est besoin de vous nommer personne; je m'en rapporte à vos souvenirs; et **le châtiment de ceux dont je parle a de beaucoup surpassé mes souhaits**."

Reference: http://remacle.org/bloodwolf/orateurs/phil21.htm

Frensp
Native speaker of:

French

Note to reference poster

Asker: Thank you for these quotes. - I had indeed thought already of looking for some Fr or other versions. But I have to say that while these two versions go in essence in the same direction of what I had mostly seen so far, they are rather wild fantasy in wording. - I am baffled by this kind of translation concept

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Mihi poenarum illi plus quam optarem dederunt. - Parsing Cicero

English translation: They paid a greater penalty than I would have wished.

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Mihi poenarum illi plus quam optarem dederunt. - Parsing Cicero

English translation: They paid a greater penalty than I would have wished.

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