This site uses cookies. Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site, while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used. For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
Cookie settings
  1. KudoZ™ Top
  2. Hungarian to English
  3. Linguistics

-os vs. -u/Ĺą in Hungarian

English translation: An attempt

17:11 Oct 13, 2002
Hungarian to English translations [PRO]
Linguistics / Grammar
Hungarian term or phrase: -os vs. -u/Ĺą in Hungarian
Igazabol ez "magyar-magyar" kerdes. A "magyar-angol-t" azert irtam, mert angolul kerem a magyarazatot.

Azt nem igazan ertem, hogy mi a szabaly, amikor egy melleknevet akarok csinalni egy fonevbol. Peldaul:

egy iranyu (jegy)
orosz anyanyelvu (lany)
jo kedvu (ember),

de

piros kabatos (ember)
almas (retes) stb.

Miert nem "egy iranyos jegy" vagy "piros kabatu ember"?
Mi a szabaly? A lenyeget erzem, ugyhogy erzem, hogy hogyan kellene mondani, de miert - fogalmam nincs.

Elore is koszonom.
Olga Simon
Hungary
Local time: 16:20
English translation:An attempt
Explanation:
Dear Olga,
Thank you for the question. It gives many of us a chance to think a bit of some important points of Hungarian grammar. Something that we use somewhat unconciously - and thus we rarely realize its complexity and beauty.

Let us take at the constructions through your examples.

egy iranyú jegy
orosz anyanyelvű lány
jó kedvű ember,

as opposed to

almás rétes
kabátos ember

In the first group you have
adjective (or a number) + derived adjective + noun,

while in the second

derived adjective + noun.

Constructions with
adjective derived with ú/ű + noun
without another adjective to begin with are non-existent.

In the second group the meaning of -s (os/es/ös) is WITH sg.
Almás rétes - rétes/strudel WITH apple.
Piros kabátos ember - man WITH a red coat. (This is one possible translation.)

In the first group you will find more fundamental things. WITH won't do the job here.

Egy irányú jegy - it is a fundamental property, a defining property of the ticket.
Orosz anyanyelvű - is again something fundamental, sg that you cannot change easily - as opposed to kabátos ember, who can just remove the thing he is WITH.
Jó kedvű is again something rather fundamental - though it can change more easily than your mother tongue. The line is not perfectly sharp but traceable.

Therefore you will have a
négy lábú, festékfoltos asztal
barna hajú, fekete táskás lány.

You will often hear sárga cipőjű ember - however, sárga cipős is more correct and commoner, I believe.

A journal devoted to Hungarian language/grammar makes the following difference:

Melléknévképzők:
-s (-os/-es/-ös): fás, bokros, kavicsos (’valamivel ellátott’ jelentésű); (száz)forintos (papírpénz); hetes (villamos); daliás, fiús (hasonlítást jelölők); családias, házias; futólagos, fölösleges; kékes, feketés (kisebb mértékű tulajdonságot jelölők); -ú/-ű, -jú/-jű: (piros) arcú, (piros) tetejű (’valamivel bíró, valamivel ellátott’ jelentésűek);




--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-10-13 18:30:52 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

http://www.c3.hu/~nyelvor/period/1241/124106.htm

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-10-14 05:25:59 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Answer to Katalin\'s question in her Note added at 2002-10-13 21:45:44 (GMT):

hosszú szőrű/hajú
as opposed to
piros kabátos.

Hosszú haj/szőr is a characteristic of the person/dog. Piros kabát is an object that belongs to him. The first one is more fundamental.
(How interesting: property would describe both - but with two different meanings.)

An interesting question came to my mind - with a difficult example. In chemistry, we have \"purinvázas vegyület\". It seems to me that it is because of the fact that \"purinvázas\" is one word that this is used instead of the seemingly more logical purinvázú.
When it is two words, even in scientific context similar constructions work with -ú, -ű:

hosszú láncú polimer.


How precisely can we draw the line, how universal its applicability is? This is a good and interesting question, so do not worry, I had no feeling of you picking on me.
Selected response from:

Attila Piróth
France
Local time: 16:20
Grading comment
Excellent!

If only all of my numerous questions that I sometimes come up with could be answered in such a manner and with such conscientiousness I would probably be reading Jozsef Attila in original pretty soon!

Nagyon szépen köszönöm!

Barnahajú, orosz anyanyevű, majdnem mindig jókedvű
Simon Olga.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
5 +1An attempt
Attila Piróth
3Questions, examples
Katalin Horváth McClure


  

Answers


1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +1
An attempt


Explanation:
Dear Olga,
Thank you for the question. It gives many of us a chance to think a bit of some important points of Hungarian grammar. Something that we use somewhat unconciously - and thus we rarely realize its complexity and beauty.

Let us take at the constructions through your examples.

egy iranyú jegy
orosz anyanyelvű lány
jó kedvű ember,

as opposed to

almás rétes
kabátos ember

In the first group you have
adjective (or a number) + derived adjective + noun,

while in the second

derived adjective + noun.

Constructions with
adjective derived with ú/ű + noun
without another adjective to begin with are non-existent.

In the second group the meaning of -s (os/es/ös) is WITH sg.
Almás rétes - rétes/strudel WITH apple.
Piros kabátos ember - man WITH a red coat. (This is one possible translation.)

In the first group you will find more fundamental things. WITH won't do the job here.

Egy irányú jegy - it is a fundamental property, a defining property of the ticket.
Orosz anyanyelvű - is again something fundamental, sg that you cannot change easily - as opposed to kabátos ember, who can just remove the thing he is WITH.
Jó kedvű is again something rather fundamental - though it can change more easily than your mother tongue. The line is not perfectly sharp but traceable.

Therefore you will have a
négy lábú, festékfoltos asztal
barna hajú, fekete táskás lány.

You will often hear sárga cipőjű ember - however, sárga cipős is more correct and commoner, I believe.

A journal devoted to Hungarian language/grammar makes the following difference:

Melléknévképzők:
-s (-os/-es/-ös): fás, bokros, kavicsos (’valamivel ellátott’ jelentésű); (száz)forintos (papírpénz); hetes (villamos); daliás, fiús (hasonlítást jelölők); családias, házias; futólagos, fölösleges; kékes, feketés (kisebb mértékű tulajdonságot jelölők); -ú/-ű, -jú/-jű: (piros) arcú, (piros) tetejű (’valamivel bíró, valamivel ellátott’ jelentésűek);




--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-10-13 18:30:52 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

http://www.c3.hu/~nyelvor/period/1241/124106.htm

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-10-14 05:25:59 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Answer to Katalin\'s question in her Note added at 2002-10-13 21:45:44 (GMT):

hosszú szőrű/hajú
as opposed to
piros kabátos.

Hosszú haj/szőr is a characteristic of the person/dog. Piros kabát is an object that belongs to him. The first one is more fundamental.
(How interesting: property would describe both - but with two different meanings.)

An interesting question came to my mind - with a difficult example. In chemistry, we have \"purinvázas vegyület\". It seems to me that it is because of the fact that \"purinvázas\" is one word that this is used instead of the seemingly more logical purinvázú.
When it is two words, even in scientific context similar constructions work with -ú, -ű:

hosszú láncú polimer.


How precisely can we draw the line, how universal its applicability is? This is a good and interesting question, so do not worry, I had no feeling of you picking on me.

Attila Piróth
France
Local time: 16:20
Native speaker of: Native in HungarianHungarian
PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
Excellent!

If only all of my numerous questions that I sometimes come up with could be answered in such a manner and with such conscientiousness I would probably be reading Jozsef Attila in original pretty soon!

Nagyon szépen köszönöm!

Barnahajú, orosz anyanyevű, majdnem mindig jókedvű
Simon Olga.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Katalin Horváth McClure: I was thinking about something similar, however I found a few examples that made me question it. See more below.
36 mins
agree  Csaba Ban: great explanation. Mind the spelling: egyirányú, jókedvű, négylábú. The rest of the examples cited are written separately.
41 mins
  -> What careless mistakes I made! Thanx
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
Questions, examples


Explanation:
I like Attile1s explanation. I was going to come up with something similar. I also found this to be true:
"Constructions with
adjective derived with ú/? + noun
without another adjective to begin with are non-existent. "
Now, my question is, does this apply to the following examples:
- szőrös kutya vs. hosszú szőrű kutya ?
- hajas baba vs. barna hajú baba ?
- füles korsó vs. törött fülű korsó ? (Nem vagyok benne biztos, de lehet, hogy a hajasbaba és a füleskorsó az egybe írandó. Hmmm.)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-10-13 21:45:44 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

To Attila:
Thank you very much for the clarification. I was not questioning the rightness of your answer, I just wasn\'t sure if I understood the way you meant it.

I still have a question, let\'s say you have the following words:
hosszú, szőr, kutya
Well, how do you know which ending to use when you want to describe a dog with long hair?

Same question goes for : piros, kabát, ember.
How do you know which ending to use when you want to describe a man in/wearing a red coat?

I am not picking on you, I just got really interested in this, and would like to understand, if there is a clear rule.

It is amazing what a difficult language is ours!
:-O

Katalin Horváth McClure
United States
Local time: 10:20
Native speaker of: Native in HungarianHungarian

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Attila Piróth: "Szőrű kutya", "hajú baba" and "fülű korsó" do not exist - is what I said. So it perfectly applies to your examples.
40 mins
  -> Great, now I understand what you meant by the quoted text. I will write more above, this textbox is short.
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)



Login or register (free and only takes a few minutes) to participate in this question.

You will also have access to many other tools and opportunities designed for those who have language-related jobs (or are passionate about them). Participation is free and the site has a strict confidentiality policy.

Return to KudoZ list

KudoZ™ translation help

The KudoZ network provides a framework for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short phrases.

See also:
ProZ.com term search
Search millions of term translations
Close search
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search