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This question was closed without grading. Reason: No acceptable answer
German to English translations [PRO] Art/Literary - Idioms / Maxims / Sayings
German term or phrase:ein germanischer Germane
A German national serving at the foreign offices of a German company will soon be returning home and he is talking about the person who should replace him in an email to somebody at head office:
"Ich habe Herrn X mehrfach gesagt, dass hier ein germanischer Germane her muss."
OK, I don't have any problem with the literal meaning - 'a Teutonic Teuton' - but what is he really getting at? My understanding is that he means somebody who lives up to certain German stereotypes such as meticulousness, punctuality, seriousness, probity, etc. (and probably the latter is important as this is a country in which I imagine bribery to be widespread). I am thinking of using 'somebody Teutonic through and through' but I feel the need to check with others if I am on the right lines. Thanking you in advance for your assistance.
Unfortunately anything you pick is going to be putting words in the person's mouth as there is no way of knowing what he meant, same applies to Teuton (why didn't he say ein Teutone?) Your only real option is to leave it in German with a note.
Wikipedia: "German(s) may refer to: Germans, an ethnic group – Germanic peoples, any of the Germanic peoples – A citizen of the FRG unter German nationality law."<br />Merriam Webster Online: "Full definition of German: a member of any of the Germanic peoples inhabiting western Europe in Roman times – A native or inhabitant of Germany, a person of German descent, one whose native language is German and who is a native of a country other than Germany – The Germanic language..."
... and close without grading, but all of the answers use 'German' and I am convinced that whatever the answer, it cannot contain the word German. The German for 'a German' is 'ein Deutscher', not 'ein Germaner', and if the author had meant the former, he could have said it. In a translation for legal purposes you cannot put words into somebody's mouth that they didn't say, especially if these words can be misconstrued.
A native speaker of English might use the word "Teutonic" to descibe all things German and uber-German, as it has a humorous note to it in English. A German (writing in English) might not use the word because the Germans generally don't "get the joke".
The author here is German. That, to me, is why "Teutonic" doesn't really fit. It has nothing to do with being "correct" and everything to do with who is doing the talking.
As for the meaning of this particular phrase, it could be totally obvious (ein germanischer Germane = ein Deutscher hoch drei, etc.) or it could be, as Björn suggested, something entirely different, perhaps some kind of inside joke. You never know.
"I personally like Teutonic, even if it is not 'correct.' Manhattanites aren't Native Americans, either." - Grin & granted. By the way, I also found the first point you made about Piefke quite interesting.
I confess: Before I moved to where I am now, I had lived for quite a while near Paul's father-in-law. I believe the "slightly humorous/slightly disparaging reference" can be easily explained by three things:
Teutoburg Forest / the battle at Teutoburg Forest / the Hermannsdenkmal (monument to Arminius who led the troops into battle against the Romans)
Around that area, the term Germane still figures prominently. In the south or the east of Germany, not so much.
I actually didn't want to jump into this discussion anymore, since I am afraid that, ultimately, it will not prove fruitful. I read all of what Tim had to say about it and it may be all he can say - but honestly, it doesn't help much until you know at least two things:
A) which country the overseas office is in; B) whether this is code for something.
Especially regarding B, I agree with Brigitte: It sounds nonsensical. If there is a code to crack, the context provided is simply not enough to decipher it.
Kristina Cosumano (X)
Germany
20:46 Apr 8, 2016
"I mean what are you going to do with the Anglo-Saxons, the Slavs, etc. all settling in Germany hundreds if not thousands of years ago?" Not to mention the original Prussians who were NOT German. I personally like Teutonic, even if it is not "correct". Manhattanites aren't Native Americans, either.
Brigitte mentioned to Lonnie that she didn't think the phrase "ein germanischer Germane" sounded "Aryan" ... but rather that it "seems just nonsensical."
I couldn't agree more.
It makes me wonder what the author of these words would think if he saw the prolonged discussion that his somewhat whimsical turn of a phrase has sparked!
show me the translator who does a thorough evaluation of each and every term in the source in order to decide whether or not he/she might be competent to accept the job!
On the other hand, for years now, I have rarely asked questions about language in paid jobs I am working on and almost all my questions have been about things that have caught my interest in casual reading. I think a couple of questions a year about paid work can be justified.
@Ramey Thank you. I know Tim wants it as "opaque as possible," but I can also tell him that the only other examples of "I am a Teuton" I could find were related to religious matters, one of them akin to "pure" culture and blood (discussion boards about Norse gods, which is why I haven't mentioned it before). Besides, as opaque as possible does not have to mean "as peculiar as possible" - that may just raise some eyebrows and if it's a sensitive matter?
@Lonnie Based on Tim's first explanation, I understood it differently as a very serious and sensitive matter. It could be that I am too influenced by this Trump-a-Duke season of politics (did anyone get that?), so anything with "pure" + "bred" just falls out of my register (What would you think of "home-bred German" if one wants to make a joke?).
Yes, maybe we won't reach any agreement here. I just wanted to point out that if you're translating a statement made by a German employee about German(ic) matters, Teuton(ic) would not be the first thing I'd think of.
My take on "germanischer Germane" is that the tone is ironic/cynical. Hence my "pure-bred" proposal. But if one wants to play "safer", I could go with Ramey's "truly German..."
Ramey Rieger (X)
Germany
@Björn
12:19 Apr 8, 2016
I fully agree that the term has NOT been coined or used by native Germans (regardless of tribe).
That is correct, I just want to make two points here:
A) Besides the narrow definition, Oxford categorizes it as derogatory, Macmillan as attributes typically thought of as German, and Cambridge restricts it to the northwest of Europe. The American Merriam-Webster concurs with the AHD, so this might be an American thing.
2) The term was coined by "outsiders" - the Romans. I am not sure that until today, we have people self-identifying as Teutons. "Germanen" yes, but Teutons? The only reference of "I am a Teuton" I could find was a book by Robert Buchanan where one of the characters utters the above. Same on the German side. Ich bin ein Germane seems preferable, whether or not the term Germane is a scientific category. I mean what are you going to do with the Anglo-Saxons, the Slavs, etc. all settling in Germany hundreds if not thousands of years ago?
We could argue about definitions all day. If I refer to the American Heritage Dictionary, there are two definitions of 'Teuton': The narrow 1: "A member of an ancient people, probably of Germanic or Celtic origin, who lived in Jutland until about 100 B.C.", and the broader 2: "A member of any of the peoples speaking a Germanic language, especially a German", (so in fact the German term 'Teutonen' may not be exactly synonymous with the English term 'Teutons') and while the narrow definition 1 does not fit the mark, I would argue that the broader definition 2 does. I would certainly rather use an odd sounding term like Teuton in preference to German, which risks implying that the guy is a racist or a facist when that may not be what he is getting at at all. I note with interest that the theatrical production I mentioned is in German-speaking Switzerland. I doubt if this thread is ever going to reach a definitive conclusion, but it is an interesting break from the usual translation routine!
Literal or not, Teutonen are a sub-group of Germanen (see any available online reference on the distinction between both), so that won't work.
Where we disagree is the term "bred," you may end up at the KKK or such. Even if not, just type in purebred and German, and you'll see it's all about dogs. I don't think one of them should run the office.
The only other thing I could think of is that the code refers to the same issues we have nowadays: Even in the 1960s, migrants had already been flowing into Germany and the 1980s were definitely a time during which a lot of people migrated to Germany for different reasons.
Could it be that all he wants to say is: "I told X several times that we need someone who truly understands and can uphold German values while overseas."
You know, instead of sending someone over who may feel at home in both cultures (not an uncommon occurence), you send someone to "clear out the rot."
Anyone understand what I'm getting at?
Kristina Cosumano (X)
Germany
11:00 Apr 8, 2016
Tim, I think you are on the right track with "Gottlieb Piefke, ein germanischer Germane". "Piefke" is certainly a well-known negative term for Prussians (but used by Austrians for northern Germans in general: see the "Die Piefke Saga" films), and while I would not use this term in your translation, I think it explains what the speaker is getting at.
I understand the reservation about translating “Germane“ with "German". But Teuton--unless contemporary derogatory--has a much narrower meaning (OAEDict:"member of a people who lived in Jutland in the 4th century BC and fought the Romans in France in the 2nd century BC.") than “Germane“ (Duden: "Angehöriger einer der zur indogermanischen Sprach- und Völkerfamilie gehörenden Gruppe untereinander sprachverwandter Völkerschaften in Nord- und Mitteleuropa). So better: German or "Germane"(except the latter might be mistaken for the English word "germane"!).
Frankly, I usually think that if somebody has to ask a question here, it means that they shouldn't have accepted the job in the first place because it means they don' t understand the source language well enough in that particular domain or register. So I am reluctant to ask Kudoz questions. However, the input from native speakers suggests that I am justified in scratching my head a little here. I agree with Erik that if the target audience is made of well paid legal professionals whose job it is to draw the correct influences, a literal translation is the correct answer. On the other hand, I think we have to provide enough to take them in the right direction, but without drawing one particular influence and prompting them, either. So many inferences are possible. Maybe, indeed, in this country people expect Germans to be blond and blue eyed, and they will exert more influence if they are. I think a fairly literal treatment along with an explanation is what is called for. We will see, though. Perhaps somebody can come up with the perfect solution.
He is maybe/hopefully joking and he means a “scherzhaft; ein großer, blonder, blauäugiger Mensch“, like it says here in the Duden definition http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Germane A “Germane“ is not a German. So, i wouldn't use German in the translation. Maybe “truly germanic person“ or sth.
Obviously I am trying to be as opaque as possible here because this is potentially a very sensitive legal case and I don't want to give away enough information for the company or people involved to be identified. However, I know the town that these two people come from and the local dialect there would undoubtedly be Platt. What is influencing my thinking here goes back to a time in the 1980's when I was living in Düsseldorf (and at a time when regional identities were stronger in Germany) and I recall several times hearing Düsseldorfer workmates referring disparagingly to other colleagues from places like Hannover or Berlin behind their backs as 'Preusse', so I wonder if some speakers of Platt, some of whom may see themselves as being a separate nationality, speak disparagingly of 'Germane'. Just a hunch, and I could well be wrong.
The source term is certainly not dialectal in the north of Germany. If you need confirmation whether parts of your text are Plattdeutsch, I'll be happy to have a look. So far, this seems unlikely, though.
OK, but aren't these false friends? Germane doesn't mean German, does it? On the other hand, it would appear that the working language used in the company's foreign office is English, and these messages have a lot of Denglish and English mixed in, so perhaps that is what is meant. I also notice some dialectical features mixed into the messages between these two people which sounds like it might be Plattdeutsch to me (with my limited knowledge), so perhaps this is something people on the north coast of Germany might say. I appreciate the input from native speakers here which helps to confirm that this is quite an enigmatic statement.
Your own interpretation sounds quite plausible to me. But, seeing that this is to be an exhibit in a court case, shouldn't you translate as literally as reasonably possible and leave the interpretation to the court and the lawyers?
In this sense, your own suggestion seems to work well: "A Teutonic Teuton" sounds vague and curious? Perfect, because so does the source text.
My problem: history is my hobby; when I read "germanischer Germane" I think of those people on the right side of the Rhine who defeated the Romans (Varus, in the year 9). Maybe it's supposed to mean a "typical German" (but what is that?). Can we be sure that Germans/German companies are less involved in bribery than people/companies from other nations? Maybe yes - but doubts remain.
Thanks for the feedback. As far as I understand things, this email is going to be used as an exhibit in a court case, and the author may well even be under investigation, so asking them is not an option, I am afraid. I am being a little ingenious when I say that I imagine bribery to be widespread in this country, because I am privy to a lot of emails between the office in this country and head office, and I can get an idea of the machinations involved in landing government contracts here, so I am pretty sure this is a coded way of speaking about somebody who does not stray from the straight and narrow, like a good, true Teuton (or German), but I feel the need to seek confirmation. Maybe I should add a note that I am not 100% sure about what he is getting at.
I am German but this expression means nothing to me
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Answers
3 hrs confidence: peer agreement (net): +3
a (truly) German German
Explanation: Strangely enough, this is an American idiom and was used in the fifties when German products boomed in the States - it refers to industrialness, precision and straightforwardness - I can still hear my Grandma say, when talking about a neighbor - "Look at his garden, he's a real German German." The same thing she also applied to his kids, (embarrassingly clean and polite) his car....
Ramey Rieger (X) Germany Local time: 04:51 Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 70
peer agreement (net): +3