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German to English translations [PRO] History / Memorial picture
German term or phrase:Oekonom auf dem Venissen-Gute zu Parzham
Nach dem Tod der Eltern wurden die Arbeiten und Zuständigkeiten auf dem Venushof neu verteilt. Der landwirtschaftliche Großbetrieb umfasste 125 Tagwerk Ackerland, dazu Wald und Wiesen, auf denen ein Dutzend Pferde und Fohlen weideten. Hansl fiel, kurz vor dem Tod der Mutter aus der Schule entlassen, zunächst die Rolle des dritten Knechtes zu. Nach dem Tod des Vaters führte bis auf weiteres Josef als Ältester den Hof. Die jüngeren Brüder Bartholomäus und Georg gingen ihm als erster und zweiter Knecht zur Hand. Georg sollte bis zu seinem Tod im Jahr 1892 unverheiratet auf dem Hof bleiben, und als dieser in jüngere Hände ging, noch als Verwalter tätig sein: „Oekonom auf dem Venissen-Gute zu Parzham“ wird auf dem Totenbildchen des 77-jährigen stehen. Josef starb als unverheirateter Hofbauer bereits mit 59 Jahren. Bartholomäus schwängerte im Jahr 1843 noch ledig seine Geliebte Elisabeth Schwarz, die er zwei Jahre später heiratete und zu der er in den großväterlichen Weiler Bayerbach auf den Schradl-Hof zog.
What does "Oekonom" mean in this context? "Economist" does not seem to be the meaning of the term as it would be used in 19th century Bavaria. Manager? It obviously connects back to "Verwalter", but is there another more historical term that might be appropriate?
Explanation: Looks possible: The old word for a farmer below the rank of yeoman. A husbandman usually held his land by copyhold or leasehold tenure and may be regarded as the ‘average farmer in his locality’. The words ‘yeoman’ and ‘husbandman’ were gradually replaced in the later 18th and 19th centuries by ‘farmer’. http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.201...
See also reference post.
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I have chosen this answer because it has an "archaic sounding" ring to it, and it does not have any other connotation. 4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer
Probably also why I'm repelled by "husbandman," even though it seems a legitimate translation of Oekonom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estate_(land) In American English, the above connotation is the primary meaning of the word "estate" (when it is not prefaced by the word "real"). That is why the British English terms "trading estates" and "industrial estates" sound like oxymorons to Americans, as few wealthy persons would deliberately choose to live next to factories.
I can't really help with Venissen, except "Venus" or "venison"? I think you misunderstood me; Oekonom may be more poetic or expansive than a synonym of land farmer. http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/299/ Paul portrays himself as an oikonomos of God in 1 Corinthians (4.1-5; 9.16-23)
I didn't argue against estate and I know what husbandman means; it didn't sit right with me for some reason, but I'm not sure I can put it in words and I did say that was your choice.
What I did argue against was the use of "Venisse": "...if I read you correctly, you are saying that Venissen-Gut could just be 'Venus Farm'."
Yes, exactly. That's why I posted the Capuchin document; you will find only Venus-Hof in there, I think.
Just to give you an example from the Wiki link about the plural of last names: "[plural] die Heußens, die [singular] Heuß"
Even in this case, merely dropping the -s- won't get you that person's last name.
I'm sure it's a similar issue here. You can't just drop the -n at the end because it doesn't square with Johanna's explanation either. I hope I explained this right.
The term "husbandman" is a cognate of "husbandry", which is essentially the care of animals/livestock, farming. I have not finished the translation, but if I read you correctly, you are saying that Venissen-Gut could just be "Venus Farm". Is that what you are saying? I actually don't mind "estate" because I actually have a now-deceased relative who was a farmer and his farms were called an "estate". "Estate" in this somewhat archaic sense denotes a large farm with a nice house on it.
However, I hope you did not translate "Venissen-Gut" as "Vennisse Estate" because that would be completely wrong, IMO--not to mention that it has two -n- in the middle. It wouldn't make sense even without the double letter; "venisse" is a Latin word derived from "venir."
I think Johanna's right here; it's just a shortened form showing whose "Gut" it is. The other option would have been something akin to "Bayrischer Hof," which you don't translate as "Bayerische Estate" either. I doubt people would even make the connection in context. And all of the documents I've seen say "Venussenhof" or "Venussengut" without an -i-; it's written like this on the official birth record, if you will. There is no such thing as "Venisse." If at all, there could be a plural, including the -u-, but it's a bit tricky regarding last names (see "s-laut"): https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Hilfe:Vor-_und_Nachnamen/Gram...
You are welcome! I understand that we sometimes have hints that lead us to make linguistic conclusions without considering a lot of things. I think this is a part of our profession. I find that in most circumstances it's not problematic, but when a memorial plaque or a publication is involved, the extra caution is appropriate. :)
Thank you for the additional clarification about the the "Venissenhof" and "Venissen-Gut". Is there a certain phonetic/orthographic ellipsis that you were implying by the progression from "Venus-sein-Hof" to "Venissenhof"?
The "Venissen-Gute" is in a memorial plaque celebrating one of the Birndorfer family members. At this point, my best understanding of the variation "Venisse" is that it comes from the Old High German word for bog (fenusz). The "sz" combination may indeed have been pronounced with a final half vowel, rather than stopping with the fricative consonant. The Capuchin document is fantastic! Thank you so much for locating that.
Thanks for the kind explanation, Timothy. A final thought from me: From the style of the writing, which is about St. Conrad's brother, this might not be the profession Oekonom. I regret that I jumped to conclusions and didn't explore all the possibilities.
http://gottesdienstinstitut-nordkirche.de/wp-content/uploads... Vers 1-2 Der Verdacht: „Ein reicher Mann hatte einen Geschäftsführer, dieser wurde verdächtigt, seinen Besitz zu verschleudern. Er ließ ihn rufen: Was höre ich über dich? Leg deine Bilanz vor! Du kannst nicht weiter die Geschäfte führen.“ Der Verwalter oder Geschäftsführer, griech. Oikonómos, ist ein Mann mit weitreichenden Kompetenzen. Ein Ökonom, fit in Wirtschafts- und Rechtsdingen, tätig als Manager im Auftrag des Eigentümers eines Großunternehmens, ausgestattet mit Prokura. Eine auch heute übliche Funktion.
My follow-on question: Could this be an OCR error or a typo (u and i as adjacent keys)?
I still don't see how you get to the -i- in the middle. The document above seems to confirm that: "Die Eintragung im Taufbuch von St. Wolfgang, der Wallfahrtskirche im Pfarrsprengel von Weng, meldet vom Jahre 1818 auf Seite 33: 'Johann Evangelist, lebendgeboren; Hebamme Katharina Haas; Vater Bartholomäus Birndorfer, Bauer, kath., auf dem Venussengut zu Parzham...'"
"Parzham" and "Venus-Hof" are right; I don't see how you get from "Venus" to "Venissen," neither based on Latin nor German. Additionally, many Ghits are false positives.
Yes, this is what I was looking for. The term "husbandman" definitely conveys the feel of it being old. Before I decide for sure, however, I will see if there are any other answers.
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
8 hrs confidence:
Oekonom
land goods provisioner (farmer)
Explanation: I've read that it's particularly Austrian/Bavarian.
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landwirt Landwirt ist die moderne Bezeichnung für einen Beruf, gebildet aus Landbau (mit Land im Sinne von „Landschaft“ oder „Boden“) und Wirt („Wirtschafter“, „Hauswirt“, „Ökonom“).
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Herbmione Granger Germany Local time: 04:51 Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 4
Notes to answerer
Asker: Hello Herbalchemist, Thank you for your answer. I decided to go with "husbandman" because it is one single lexical unit. Your answer is definitely good and regionally appropriate, just a bit longer than I need for a memorial plaque.
Explanation: Looks possible: The old word for a farmer below the rank of yeoman. A husbandman usually held his land by copyhold or leasehold tenure and may be regarded as the ‘average farmer in his locality’. The words ‘yeoman’ and ‘husbandman’ were gradually replaced in the later 18th and 19th centuries by ‘farmer’. http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.201...
See also reference post.
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My pleasure, Timothy.
Helen Shiner United Kingdom Local time: 03:51 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 105
Grading comment
I have chosen this answer because it has an "archaic sounding" ring to it, and it does not have any other connotation.
Notes to answerer
Asker: I have chosen this answer because it has an "archaic sounding" ring to it, it is one single lexical unit, and it does not have any other connotation other than farmer. Thank you so much for your contribution.
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You're welcome. I'm a bit surprised, though, that you consider 1892 to be "archaic". Husbandman is so archaic, it's biblical. I am also puzzled why steward would need "room to explain it in the translation" whereas husbandman wouldn't.
Lancashireman United Kingdom Local time: 03:51 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 252
Notes to answerer
Asker: Hi Lancashireman, I have chosen husbandman for this because it has an "archaic sounding" ring to it, and it does not have any other connotation. Steward has a few other connotations, which could be more distracting. Thank you so much for your contribution. I would use your answer if I had room to explain it in the translation.
