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German to English translations [PRO] General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters / 1940s usage
German term or phrase: vieles ist noch im Enstehen krank;
This from a letter written in Munich in September 1946 to a relation in an internment camp in England: "Wohl erlebt man gute Ansätze vieles ist noch im Enstehen krank; vor allem fehlt der große Geist und der Schrei nach Brot und Weib übertönt alles andere. "
Does "krank" mean simply "wrong" or more "bizarre/weird"? Any insights gratefully received....
Explanation: Camp management may have been chaotic. Perhaps, measures to improve conditions were well-intentioned but messy or not workable in practice.
The letter writer seems to use "krank" as a figure of speech, not in its literal sense.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 hr (2020-03-10 17:09:57 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Compare with use of the phrase in this source: "Meist wird das Ansuchen um Aufnahme einer Entgegnung ignoriert oder gar höhnisch abgefertigt. Man hat deshalb sogar besondere Zeitschriften für „Antikritiken“ hegründet, natürlich ohne jeden Erfolg. Solche Zeitschriften sind gleich im Entstehen krank und erlöschen nach wenigen Monaten klanglos." https://books.google.com/books?id=0I0tAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA702&lpg=...
Thanks to everyone who contributed to this. I found Michael's quotation quite persuasive- the "im Entstehen" is important. It is easy now with the benefit of hindsight to make assumptions which are not actually supported by the text- I certainly read perhaps too much moralising into it. On the other hand, there was nothing to suggest impatience for more radical change. For the record we bought this original letter from Ebay for £2.50! 4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer
Hallo Björn, in der Tat würde ich erwarten, dass im Jahr 1946 ein Student, der seine Weltsicht in einem handgeschriebenen Brief ausbreitet, der seine Sprache (bis auf diese eine Stelle) sehr gut beherrscht und der den Mangel an 'Geist' bei seinen Zeitgenossen beklagt, eine bessere Grammatik und Interpunktion hat als jemand aus dem 21. Jahrhundert, der seine Mitteilungen nach dem Motto "Es reicht doch, wenn man versteht, was gemeint ist" in die Tasten haut. (Damit wir uns nicht missverstehen: Damit bist nicht du gemeint.)
Und was "degeneriert" etc. betrifft: Das waren nicht meine Interpretationen des Satzes, sondern Beispiele, wie ich mir Konstrukte mit "noch" im Sinne von "schon" vorstellen könnte.
Interestingly enough, I do agree with what you said later on: "This seems to be a person who sees the chance for a new beginning, for change, for big things to happen, and he/she is frustrated to see the people around him/her just trying to survive after the war and missing the great chance he/she perceives."
However, I don't understand how this backs up your "Vieles degeneriert noch im Entstehen." It seems to me the opposite is true. If I misunderstood what you were trying to say, let me know.
Fourth, Michael's example sentence is not the same as the one we are talking about here. It reads "...sind gleich im Entstehen krank..."
However, gleich im Entstehen and noch im Entstehen aren't the same thing. If it were about gleich, I could agree with from but this is about "noch," e.g., the situation can still be rectified.
It says that right now, he sees some people doing good but also a lot of them not doing anything ("...ziehen die meisten eben...").
Suggestion including the verb: "Wohl erlebt man gute Ansätze vieles ist noch im Enstehen [sic]" krank. -> "Obwohl hier und da gute Ansätze vorhanden sind, krankt es noch bei vielen anderen Dingen."
This use of wohl as obwohl can be found in the Brothers Grimm dictionary; I won't disagree, though, that it could also mean durchaus.
As for "wird," I think that just proves my point. It's not about a process. At that time, despite some evidence to the contrary, prospects were bleak. This doesn't mean it's all going to the wolves.
Not only do I agree with Erik, but I think your misinterpreting the sentence.
First, it's a personal letter written in the 1940s. Do you expect the grammar to be flawless? Do you still write like people did 50, 60 or 100 years ago?
E.g., put a semicolon after Ansätze and a period (or full stop) after krank. This sentence can be rephrased, but I'll get to that in a minute.
Second, besides agreeing with Erik about "noch," I think it is important to list other words associated with "krank" (as was mentioned previously), in particular the verb, i.e., "an etw. kranken": "durch einen bestimmten Mangel in seiner Funktionsfähigkeit o. Ä. beeinträchtigt sein BEISPIEL die Firma krankt an einer schlechten Organisation" https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/kranken
This is in line with what follows: "...der Schrei nach Brot..."
Third, "noch," as Erik said, is something happening initially. E.g., there is the (I suppose odd-sounding) word of anfanghaft, a synonym of which is "im Entstehen begriffen": https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/anfanghaft
Similarly, John 1 KJV: "In the beginning, there was the WORD..."; the German translation used to be: "Im Anfang war das Wort..."
[...]
Ramey Rieger (X)
Germany
Agree with Anne
08:58 Mar 11, 2020
Less moral, more annoyed and frustrated. You must remember, he is a student with the energy and determination of youth. The war is over and there are endless possibilities for reconstruction.
I am not sure about 'moral' disapproval. This seems to be a person who sees the chance for a new beginning, for change, for big things to happen, and he/she is frustrated to see the people around him/her just trying to survive after the war and missing the great chance he/she perceives. Is that 'moral'? We would probably need a bigger chunk of text, including what leads to the phrase you quoted here, to understand the author's attitude and line of thought (which in turn determines the -presumably- intended meaning of "krank"). <br />NB: Regarding "krank", "ill" comes to mind as an English word with similar spectrum. Does that help?
Hi Erik, I know what you mean, but still – I would expect some verb of evolution or process with this type of "noch" (for example, a construct like "Vieles wird noch im Entstehen krank" or "Vieles degeneriert noch im Entstehen"), and the conjuction indicating the contrast to "gute Ansätze" is missing.
Today, this usage of "noch" is beginning to fall into obsolescence, but probably it was still more common in the 1940s. The entry in the current Duden doesn't list it as obsolete or archaic:
noch <Adverb> (in Verbindung mit einer Zeitangabe) [...]: räumt ein, dass es sich um einen den Umständen nach sehr frühen Zeitpunkt, sehr begrenzten Zeitraum handelt
Edited: I think the expression isn't as old fashioned as I initially thought.
Hope you're well! Yes, this is what puzzles me, too. Which raises the question for Chris, which format are you working with? Is this a screenshot? Or the original piece of paper? Could something possibly have been lost in reproducing the original text?
"Wohl erlebt man gute Ansätze(,) vieles ist noch im Entstehen" fits well; "krank; vor allem fehlt der große Geist..." is conclusive as well – but "vieles ist noch im Entstehen krank" just does not make sense. You would expect "vieles ist schon im Entstehen krank", plus some preposition like aber or jedoch to mark the contrast between "gute Ansätze" and "krank". Some text may have got lost between "Entstehen" and "krank", I think.
Ramey Rieger (X)
Germany
Krank
16:47 Mar 10, 2020
I would recommend you view it in the verb form, not the adjective.
Ramey Rieger (X)
Germany
Hi Chris
16:25 Mar 10, 2020
as I understand 'im Entstehen', the author believes reconstruction is misguided while 'in the making.' Things must have been horribly chaotic and the powers that be unable to satisfy basic needs, much less exercise a modicum of idealism for Munich's future. As a student, the writer would be gung-ho for radical change, I assume, and disappointed with developments. Therefore 'krank' is misguided, crippled, lame, pathetic, or more powerfully, twisted, perverted or just plain impossible.
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Answers
21 mins confidence: peer agreement (net): +1
misconceived from the outset
Explanation: Camp management may have been chaotic. Perhaps, measures to improve conditions were well-intentioned but messy or not workable in practice.
The letter writer seems to use "krank" as a figure of speech, not in its literal sense.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 hr (2020-03-10 17:09:57 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Compare with use of the phrase in this source: "Meist wird das Ansuchen um Aufnahme einer Entgegnung ignoriert oder gar höhnisch abgefertigt. Man hat deshalb sogar besondere Zeitschriften für „Antikritiken“ hegründet, natürlich ohne jeden Erfolg. Solche Zeitschriften sind gleich im Entstehen krank und erlöschen nach wenigen Monaten klanglos." https://books.google.com/books?id=0I0tAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA702&lpg=...
Michael Martin, MA United States Local time: 10:09 Specializes in field Native speaker of: German, English PRO pts in category: 98
Grading comment
Thanks to everyone who contributed to this. I found Michael's quotation quite persuasive- the "im Entstehen" is important. It is easy now with the benefit of hindsight to make assumptions which are not actually supported by the text- I certainly read perhaps too much moralising into it. On the other hand, there was nothing to suggest impatience for more radical change. For the record we bought this original letter from Ebay for £2.50!
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks for the prompt reply, Michael. BTW, the author is not in a camp, he is in Munich and had just resumed his university studies so I assume he is referring to events in Munich (reconstruction efforts etc.).
Asker: He goes on to say: " Innerlich leer und ausgehölt ziehen die meisten eben die breite Strasse, weil sie wenig Anstrengung bringt weil sie vom Geiste nichts wissen, weil dies leichter ist and weil man dabei gut fährt. " I think he is viewing some of the rapid changes with moral disapproval, so perhaps more critical than "misconceived".