fixer les manoeuvres

English translation: make fast/belay the running rigging

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:fixer les manoeuvres
English translation:make fast/belay the running rigging
Entered by: Carol Gullidge

17:10 Mar 4, 2009
French to English translations [PRO]
Ships, Sailing, Maritime / matelotage, rigging (here = on a type-12 frigate) and its uses
French term or phrase: fixer les manoeuvres
Under the heading: Filins divers et cordages particuliers


Le gréement au sens large est constitué des mâts et vergues, espars, cordages et engins de poulierie servant à ____________******_ fixer les manoeuvres_*****___________ ou à les faire courir

_____

Part of a panel for some sort of exhibit. I'm afraid I don't know what is meant here, least of all how to express it properly in nautical terms.

If someone can supply the nautical term and, if possible, a very brief explanation, I'd be very grateful - thanks!

PS, "faire courir les manoeuvres" will be posted as a separate question

Clueless in Cove
Carol Gullidge
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:16
attach / make fast the running rigging
Explanation:
"Les manoeuvres" here means the running rigging (ie what landlubbers call ropes ...).
"Fixer" IMHO means simply to attach them

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Note added at 34 mins (2009-03-04 17:44:25 GMT)
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There are plenty of Proz members able to help, Carol (Miranda is one!), and I just got in first - doesn't necessarily mean my answer is best, though ...
Selected response from:

Michael GREEN
France
Local time: 06:16
Grading comment
Many thanks Michael, and all of you, for, crucially, putting me right regarding "manoeuvres" - All your answers were helpful, so I'm doing what I usually do in these cirumstances, which is to award the points to the first really helpful answer (they all were!). Pity there can't be 4 points for each of you...
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +2attach / make fast the running rigging
Michael GREEN
5rig, to
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
4belay the lines/running rigging
Graham macLachlan
3 +1secure the ropes
Miranda Joubioux (X)


Discussion entries: 7





  

Answers


21 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
attach / make fast the running rigging


Explanation:
"Les manoeuvres" here means the running rigging (ie what landlubbers call ropes ...).
"Fixer" IMHO means simply to attach them

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Note added at 34 mins (2009-03-04 17:44:25 GMT)
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There are plenty of Proz members able to help, Carol (Miranda is one!), and I just got in first - doesn't necessarily mean my answer is best, though ...

Michael GREEN
France
Local time: 06:16
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 56
Grading comment
Many thanks Michael, and all of you, for, crucially, putting me right regarding "manoeuvres" - All your answers were helpful, so I'm doing what I usually do in these cirumstances, which is to award the points to the first really helpful answer (they all were!). Pity there can't be 4 points for each of you...
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks so much, Michael! I imagine (fondly and hopefully) that you might therefore also know the answer to "faire courir les manoeuvres". Thank goodness I asked, as any guess would have been miles off! (being a landlubber and all that...)


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Miranda Joubioux (X)
6 mins
  -> Thank you Miranda ! How's your yawl, BTW ?

agree  Graham macLachlan: with "make fast"
2 hrs
  -> Thanks, Graham !
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
belay the lines/running rigging


Explanation:
"fixer les manoeuvres" refers to the "engins de poulierie" and not the "mâts et vergues, espars, cordages"

the "poulierie" was predominantly a lathe workshop which produced (among other things) sheaves, pump handles and belaying pins

BELAY
verb trans. & intrans. Nautical.
Fix (a rope) round a cleat, pin, etc., to secure it; secure (something) thus. M16.
belaying pin : a heavy wooden or iron pin which can be fixed in position for belaying on.
OED

ropes are referred to as "lines" on a sailing ship (except for the bell-rope!)

I could bend your ear about this subject for quite a long time if you've got time to waste...

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Note added at 13 hrs (2009-03-05 06:28:17 GMT)
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The 'HMS' Rose is a tall ship, the world's largest active wooden ... of the Rose's 17 sails is controlled by 11 to 15 lines (they are NEVER called ropes), ...
www.stuartmarkus.com/historian.html

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Note added at 13 hrs (2009-03-05 06:32:46 GMT)
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Of course, you are well aware that a rope on land is a line on a ship. ...
books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0830628444...

Graham macLachlan
Local time: 06:16
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 352
Notes to answerer
Asker: many thanks Graham for all this - great stuff!

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28 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
secure the ropes


Explanation:
manoeuvre, s. f. (rope) - Tout cordage entrant dans le gréement d'un bateau.
Dictionnaire de Marine

I prefer the word 'secure' to 'attach', hence my answer. Otherwise, Michael's answer is of course correct.



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Note added at 2 hrs (2009-03-04 19:55:26 GMT)
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Whether you choose lines or ropes really depends on the ship in question. I don't know why, but I was imagining some kind of three masted ship. In which case the cordage would have been referred to as ropes and not lines. It's all to do with the circumference of the ropes.

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Note added at 15 hrs (2009-03-05 08:40:51 GMT)
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All my FR > EN dictionaries give 'ropes' for 'manoeuvres'.

Manoeuvre, s.f. et m. Rope; Rigging; Tacking.
'une Manoeuvre est un morceau de cordage, chaîne, faisceau en fil de fer ou de laiton qui est disposé, à bord, pour le gréement ou pour le jeu de vergues et des voiles d'un navire. Il y a ainsi: Les Maonoeuvres courantes et les Manoeuvres dormantes - Les Manoeuvres basses ou des bas mâts et des basses voiles, et les Manoeuvres hautes ou des mât supérieurs et des voiles hautes. Les Manoeuvres du vent ou qui se trouvent du côté du navire frappé par le vent, et les Manoeuvres de sous le vent qui se trouvent de l'autre côté du navire...'
Dictionnaire de Marine à Voiles
Bonnefoux

ROPES. A general name given to all the cordage above one inch in circumference used in rigging a ship; but the name is severally applied to the awning, bell, boat, bolt, breast, bucket, buoy, davit, entering, grapnel, guest or guist, guy, heel, keel, man, parral, passing, ring, rudder, slip, swab, tiller, top, and yard.
The sailor's word book
Admiral W.H. Smith

Of course you can use the word 'ropes' on a ship.
You 'man the ropes', you 'learn the ropes'.
When you climb the rigging, you don't climb on 'lines' but 'ropes'.

LINE. The general appelation of a number of small ropes in a ship, as buntlines, cluelines, bowlines, &c.
The sailor's word book
Admiral W.H. Smith

The crew was very sorry for their captain's downfall,
But the sight didn't their brave hearts appall;
Because they fastened the ropes to the "Pique" at the capstan,
And the "Pique" was dragged after the "Blanche," the sight was grand.
http://www.mcgonagall-online.org.uk/poems/mpgfight.htm

http://www.napoleonicfrigates.com/Frigate/ChapterTen.htm

Unfortunately, the storm gets worse and worse the further in we go. Ropes are snapping and sails being torn all over the ship, and the masts are swaying ominously. St Elmos Fire begins to play around the masts and the ship.
http://www.clockworksky.net/pirates_pages/rp_ew_pirates_01.h...

all her Standing Ropes and Running Ropes, with her Blocks
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=25812

Belay (to): make fast and secure a rope
http://www.excelsiortrust.co.uk/modules/news/article.php?sto...



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Note added at 15 hrs (2009-03-05 09:01:58 GMT)
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OED 1933
Belay
5. Naut. To coil a running rope round a cleat, belaying pin, or kevel, so as to fasten or secure it. To fasten by so putting it round. Said especially of one of the small ropes, used for working the sails.
1627. CAPT SMITH Seaman's Gram. ix. 42 To belay, is to make fast the ropes in their proper places.
b. transf. To make fast, tie, secure.

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Note added at 16 hrs (2009-03-05 10:03:49 GMT)
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The officer of the deck began to walk forward, leaving Charlie alone beside the skylight. Stacked on a nearby rack were some belaying pins - iron cylinders to which were fastened the ropes of the ship's running rigging.
Sea of glory
Nathaniel Philbrick

Miranda Joubioux (X)
Local time: 06:16
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 74
Notes to answerer
Asker: many thanks Miranda! this is all proving quite an eye-opener!

Asker: Hi Miranda, you're probably not far off the mark with the 3 sails. It is in fact a type-12 frigate, dating to the 18th century. But I have no idea of the diameter of the ropes (or whatever!) except that they are all between 5 and 138 mm


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Michael GREEN: Right about "secure" - but oh gosh, Miranda ... "ropes .." ?! ;o) // Actually, Miranda, in the book whose details I just e-mailed you, there are several references to "ropes" !
3 mins
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16 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
rig, to


Explanation:
1 - « Guide des gréements », Ed. Le Chasse-marée,
"capeler : garnir en enfilant une manoeuvre en oeil sur une bitte, un espar". The difficulty here is our natural resistance to consider "manoeuvre" as part of the rigging not the thing we might do.
"manoeuvre : terme désignant tout cordage utilisé dans le gréement d'un bateau… Les manoeuvres dormantes sont fixes comme les haubans. Les manopeuvres courantes peuvent coulisser pour hisser… »
2 - "Boating terms", Ed. John Rousmanière.
"Line : a length of rope for a particular purpose. (The only piece of rope on a boat is a boltrope).”
3 - "Oxford A-Z of Sailing Terms", Ian Dear, Peter Kemp :
“Rig,to : in a sailing vessel to set up the standing rigging, send up the yards and reeve the running rigging"
CONCLUSION :
In answer to this question, I would opt for “rig”.
As to the underlying question relating to “line/rope”.
Rope is generally only used to describe the item, to all cordage of over one inch. As soon as your context specifically describes these things on a vessel, they become “lines” with the exception of “boltrope”.



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Note added at 17 hrs (2009-03-05 10:40:08 GMT)
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This has to be read together with your other posting from this extract :
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/3120452

The word "manoeuvre" here refers to the rigging. In context, to "standing rigging" and in the second term (faire courir...) to the running rigging.

Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Local time: 06:16
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 190
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