Ce qui d'Orient nous f(a)it

English translation: Some ideas

05:38 Sep 14, 2012

French to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Poetry & Literature

French term or phrase: Ce qui d'Orient nous f(a)it

This is the title of an article which explores Saïd's idea of Orientalism

David Vaughn KudoZ activity Questions: 157 (1 open) (7 without valid answers) (20 closed without grading) Answers: 512
Local time: 02:45

English translation:Some ideas

Explanation:
Judging from the title and David's interpretation, I'm guessing the authors pay specific attention to how cultures define themselves in opposition to one another, i.e. I'm me because I'm not you.

Thus, the West defined itself in opposition to the East, therefore (false) conceptions and (mis)representations of the East are what determined much of Western identity - how the Orient has influenced or shaped "us".

Based on that, here are some ideas:

Oriental roots and Western illusions.
Identity and illusion: rethinking the Orient.
The paradox of identity: when East me(e)t(s) West.
The paradox of identity: how the East shaped the West.
Eastern origins: how the West was formed [trying for a wordplay on "how the west was won"...].

Some irreverent suggestions:

East/West: it's all in our heads.
My name is West: I come from the East.
Taming the (b)East: the monster within.
East/West: which is best?
West: caught in the (middle) East.
Western (dis)Orientations and reality checks.
Ich bin ein Orientaler (JFK in Berlin...).
It's not you, it's me.

:-)

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Note added at 6 hrs (2012-09-14 12:21:03 GMT)
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The dichotomy of power: Eastern identity and Western illusions.
Arabian knights: the Orient within.
The disOriented West.

Western Orientations ; The Orient within ; Fragments of the Orient.

Our Oriental inheritance: dispelling the myth of the West.
Western myths and Oriental legends.

Me West, you East: identity myths.

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Note added at 9 hrs (2012-09-14 15:02:18 GMT)
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Broken mirrors and the false East/West dichotomy.
Oriental dreams and the West's identity crisis.

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Note added at 3 days4 hrs (2012-09-17 09:41:45 GMT)
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When the Saints go marching in.

Selected response from:

Wolf Draeger
South Africa
Local time: 02:45

Grading comment

What can I say? What creativity and invention. I'm sending several variants on your ideas (as well as originals) on to the client. Thanks...
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

Summary of answers provided

3 +7

Some ideas

Wolf Draeger

4 +1

What made (makes) us Eastern (Oriental)

Matt Gaskey (X)

Making ourselves in the image of the Orient / Fashioning our image in the mirror of the Orient

Helen Shiner

4 -1

Of Orient we are.

Letredenoblesse

What it means/t to be Oriental

Carol Gullidge

What in Orient define(s/d) us

Kévin Bernier

Manifestations: our non-Western ways

MatthewLaSon

The middle class view of the Middle East

Kate Collyer

Discussion entries: 13

David Vaughn

ASKER

@specific thrust

14:25 Sep 14, 2012

The article is an exploration of Said's ideas. There is nothing much in it that is not in the wikipedia article. It is a general information article accompanying an exhibition concerning Occidental images of the "Oriental" woman. Orient - as in Said - refers basically to the Middle East. The title, written by the author, is neither evoked nor alluded to in the body of the article. The author is not available. I could easily write a couple thousand words on what I have "considered", and many thousand on Said, but I don't judge that useful. Thanks for your input.

Helen Shiner

United Kingdom

With phil

13:21 Sep 14, 2012

I agree with philgoddard. We can only answer based on either the phrase itself, or what we happen to know about Saïd's views in general. The specific thrust of this article is key to finding a good, pithy title.

philgoddard

United States

13:16 Sep 14, 2012

I think this is really difficult to provide a translation for without having read the article. You have it in front of you, and we don't. That's why we've had so many suggestions and no agrees. Carol asked what you'd considered and rejected, and you didn't reply.

Yvonne Gallagher

Ireland

12:15 Sep 14, 2012

Just wondering if you need to keep the "we" or "us" at all or rather could use a more general term like the West? This seems to be about East and West and effects of orientalism (which for English speakers would be about the Far East rather than the Near East or Middle East). So, perhaps "easternisation" might work better?

David Vaughn

ASKER

Meaning

10:19 Sep 14, 2012

I'm not at all understanding this as "nous" being Oriental.

But rather what "effect" (with "faire" having a very large meaning) which things from the Orient(s) (d'Orient) have on us.

David Vaughn

ASKER

Orientalism

10:11 Sep 14, 2012

To clarify a remark made in an answer below, Saïd's theories criticize Orientalism, which is basically a fake Ingres-style uninformed invention of what the Orient (roughly the Middle East) is about, created to fulfill Occidental purposes.

David Vaughn

ASKER

@Wolf - con't

09:58 Sep 14, 2012

and like Saïd, definitely anti-colonialist

David Vaughn

ASKER

@Wolf

09:56 Sep 14, 2012

The article, which will be printed bilingually, is aimed at a general arts audience. As I said, the authors agree with Saïd's ideas in general, and are basically popularizing them. I assume the "we" in the title is the collective we, meaning European residents, French residents, people living in these Occidental cultures. One of the authors (and not the other) has North African "origins", and would probably define herself as bi-cultural. But the perspective is feminist and progressive.

Wolf Draeger

South Africa

Some Qs

09:04 Sep 14, 2012

Hi David:
Who is the FR article directed at? Who is the audience for the EN trans? What angle are the writers taking on Said's ideas? Are the writers Muslim?

David Vaughn

ASKER

@Nesrine

08:40 Sep 14, 2012

This is the EXACT complete phrase, exactly as it occurs. (Add exclamation marks to taste.)

Nesrine Echroudi

Tunisia

08:36 Sep 14, 2012

please write the whole phrase or the two successive ones!!

David Vaughn

ASKER

@Carol

08:26 Sep 14, 2012

The authors prefer that I keep close to the original if at all possible.

They agree with Saïd's concept of Orientalism, which is summarized here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism_(book)

Carol Gullidge

United Kingdom

context?

08:16 Sep 14, 2012

since this is a title, a literal translation is unlikely to be suitable. Could you tell us what you've already considered (and presumably rejected), the register required, etc. What, briefly, is the general conclusion of the article? This often has an impact on the title.

Answers

3 hrs confidence:

peer agreement (net): -1

Of Orient we are.

Explanation:
In the same vein as "We Three Kings of Orient are". I think it fits the French style and adds a touch of English culture.

Reference: http://www.carols.org.uk/we_three_kings_of_0rient_are.htm

Letredenoblesse
Local time: 02:45
Works in field
Native speaker of:

French

3 hrs confidence:

What it means/t to be Oriental

Explanation:
without wading thoroughly through the entire article (sorry, I did have a quick look, but also have a large job to get through today) and knowing the answers to Wolf's questions (ie, who is the "nous" of the title?), I'm just making a stab at this.

I interpret this as meaning roughly "What does/did being Oriental make us?" or "What being Oriental makes us?" or more simply "What it is to be Oriental"

Carol Gullidge
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:45
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 80

2 hrs confidence:

peer agreement (net): +1

What made (makes) us Eastern (Oriental)

Explanation:
A good title in French, owing to the usage of the parenthetical (a) in the verb to make a contrast between the present tense fait (makes) and the simple past fit (made). Sadly the English translations do not allow for such subtle wordplay. The choice between Eastern and Oriental, however, is one of licence in this case.

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Note added at 4 hrs (2012-09-14 10:00:01 GMT)
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In English, Saïd's theories are generally referred to as Orientalism. I would keep Oriental.

Matt Gaskey (X)
Local time: 02:45
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

English

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)

neutral

Tony M: Good comments; however, I would take issue with one point: in EN, 'oriental' tends to = Chinese, etc., whereas in FR, it includes the Middle East, and in fact, Chinese etc. are often 'asiatique'; the different connotations MIGHT be important

39 mins

-> Of course it is important, that is why the choice can only be made by the translator, thus is a matter of licence, not out of context translation

neutral

writeaway: I dare say that most pro Fr-En translators are aware of Fr verb tenses. although I don't necessarily agree with her translation, Carol has found the best solution imo: mean/t. I don't see it as subtle wordplay/or wordplay at all

1 hr

-> OK...call it outright wordplay :)

agree

MatthewLaSon: I don't see the need for creativity here as the French is anything but, imho. It's the same as "ce qu'il y a d'Orient nous fait", imho. The idea is: what it is like to be from the East, or manifestations: our non-Western ways. Your translation is fine

4 days

5 hrs confidence:

What in Orient define(s/d) us

Explanation:
Just another suggestion. When I read "Ce qui d'Orient nous fit", I get the feeling the meaning lies near the idea of what in Orient defined us as Orientals, what made us be a part of it.

Kévin Bernier
France
Local time: 02:45
Native speaker of: French

6 hrs confidence:

Making ourselves in the image of the Orient / Fashioning our image in the mirror of the Orient

Explanation:
Some suggestions to get around the shift in tense and to make a play on the distorted mirroring of identity that S is concerned with.

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Note added at 6 hrs (2012-09-14 11:44:52 GMT)
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Or rather distorted conceptions/image of the Other that inform our image/conception of ourselves.

Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:45
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 72

9 hrs confidence:

Manifestations: our non-Western ways

Explanation:
Hello,

I understand it as "Ce qu'il y a d'Orient nous fait" (fit).

It seems to be saying how our ways of the Middle Orient
impact as, or manifest themselves in us .

nous fait (fit) = effects us

fit = passé simple

The Middle East is technically "Western" in terms of religion, but they often refer to themselves as "non-Western" You have to be careful with using Orient by itself as that quickly conjure up images of the Far East, and not the Orient of the Middle East. Perhaps it is best to just say "non-West."

You have to make sure the title reads like natural English, sound contextually appropriate. This isn't at all easy, imho.

I hope this helps.

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Note added at 9 hrs (2012-09-14 15:11:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

If this is a title for a poem, this isn't going to work. You would then need to put "from the East" or "Arabia", or something like that. The readers will know you're talking about the Middle East.

MatthewLaSon
Local time: 20:45
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 20

1 day 10 hrs confidence:

The middle class view of the Middle East

Explanation:
Low confidence because this is not in any way close to the original, as requested by the client.

It does however neatly summarize Said's point of view, if you accept that middle class = average Western mentality.

Kate Collyer
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:45
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 8

5 hrs confidence:

peer agreement (net): +7

Some ideas

Wolf Draeger
South Africa
Local time: 02:45
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 32

Grading comment

What can I say? What creativity and invention. I'm sending several variants on your ideas (as well as originals) on to the client. Thanks...

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English translation: Some ideas

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