besoins du propos

English translation: requirements of their respective arguments

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:besoins du propos
English translation:requirements of their respective arguments
Entered by: John Holland

10:40 Oct 1, 2014
French to English translations [PRO]
Social Sciences - Philosophy
French term or phrase: besoins du propos
This is from an academic text about Spinoza's philosophy:

Si la confrontation entre les deux ouvrages est périlleuse vu que l’Ethique et le Traité théologico-politique ne se situent pas sur le même terrain spéculatif, elle n’est pas pourtant impossible, à condition de soumettre systématiquement les conclusions à la contre-épreuve de la différence des genres et de vérifier si les divergences s’expliquent uniquement par les ***besoins du propos*** et la nature du sujet ou si elles témoignent d’une évolution de la pensée de Spinoza.

I can't think of a good way of expressing this idea that isn't too wordy. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
tatyana000
Local time: 12:19
requirements of their respective arguments
Explanation:
Here is my attempt to paraphrase what the passage means:

It seems to me that the author is suggesting that, because the two texts by Spinoza have quite different aims and methods (i.e., ne se situent pas sur le même terrain spéculatif), comparison of them must involve a critical examination which takes their specific genres into consideration. In particular, it is important to note whether differences between them are really due to the (rhetorical or logical) requirements of their respective arguments, or whether they reflect actual changes in Spinoza's thought.

That's a paraphrase of the meaning, so I did not try to include all of the nuances. But I think the main idea is that the author wants to proceed cautiously, in order to avoid making the error of saying that certain differences between the two works reveal how Spinoza's thought developed over time when in fact those differences really come from the style in which the two works are written, which effects the nature of their argumentation.

It is worth noting that the Tractatus Theologico-Politicus, which was published during Spinoza's lifetime, was a controversial defense of the theses found in his Ethics, which was only published posthumously. In other words, it's one thing to make an argument in a logical fashion and another thing altogether to defend an argument against anticipated criticism. The author says that it is impossible to compare the two texts without taking this into consideration.

More information:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tractatus_Theologico-Politicus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_(book)
Selected response from:

John Holland
France
Local time: 12:19
Grading comment
Thank, you! You are my go-to guy for philosophy!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +3requirements of their respective arguments
John Holland
3 +2argumentational needs
kashew
3 +1by the needs and nature of the subject
Yarri K
4requirements of the statement
Lovenah Panray
3exigencies of expression
B D Finch


Discussion entries: 5





  

Answers


12 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
by the needs and nature of the subject


Explanation:
It seems to me that "propos" can be translated by subject here and therefore you can combine it with the phrase that follows.

Yarri K
Burkina Faso
Local time: 10:19
Native speaker of: English

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  philgoddard: Good idea.
6 hrs

neutral  Francis Marche: Not sure you may merge and reduce "propos" and "sujet" into one notion
15 hrs
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
requirements of the statement


Explanation:
It fits the context

Lovenah Panray
Canada
Local time: 06:19
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in FrenchFrench

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  mchd: traduction mot à mot, sans réel sens avec le contexte qu'il suffit de lire
11 mins
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
argumentational needs


Explanation:
*

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 heures (2014-10-01 14:14:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Another quote:
In this passage, Spinoza suggests the idea that the principle of union, ... Spinoza's ***argumentation*** nevertheless proceeds elliptically, remaining implicit and ...

Example sentence(s):
  • Criminological writers were nevertheless interested in some characteristics of the criminal underworld, those that fit their own argumentational needs.
kashew
France
Local time: 12:19
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Francis Marche
11 hrs
  -> Thanks

agree  MatthewLaSon
1 day 3 hrs
  -> Thanks
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +3
requirements of their respective arguments


Explanation:
Here is my attempt to paraphrase what the passage means:

It seems to me that the author is suggesting that, because the two texts by Spinoza have quite different aims and methods (i.e., ne se situent pas sur le même terrain spéculatif), comparison of them must involve a critical examination which takes their specific genres into consideration. In particular, it is important to note whether differences between them are really due to the (rhetorical or logical) requirements of their respective arguments, or whether they reflect actual changes in Spinoza's thought.

That's a paraphrase of the meaning, so I did not try to include all of the nuances. But I think the main idea is that the author wants to proceed cautiously, in order to avoid making the error of saying that certain differences between the two works reveal how Spinoza's thought developed over time when in fact those differences really come from the style in which the two works are written, which effects the nature of their argumentation.

It is worth noting that the Tractatus Theologico-Politicus, which was published during Spinoza's lifetime, was a controversial defense of the theses found in his Ethics, which was only published posthumously. In other words, it's one thing to make an argument in a logical fashion and another thing altogether to defend an argument against anticipated criticism. The author says that it is impossible to compare the two texts without taking this into consideration.

More information:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tractatus_Theologico-Politicus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_(book)

John Holland
France
Local time: 12:19
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 28
Grading comment
Thank, you! You are my go-to guy for philosophy!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Francis Marche
10 hrs
  -> Thank you, Francis

agree  MatthewLaSon
1 day 1 hr
  -> Thank you, Matthew

agree  Sophie Cherel
1 day 22 hrs
  -> Thank you, Sophie
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
exigencies of expression


Explanation:
i.e. the requirements imposed by language in order to express a thought.

https://archive.org/stream/sythetica01lauruoft/sythetica01la...
'If at any time I should fall into language which seems to indicate
that a sentient subject receives "impressions" like soft clay, or mir
rors impressions as if it were a looking-glass, this will be due merely
to the exigencies of expression.'

http://archive.org/stream/classicalpapers00earlgoog/classica...
"The treatment of antistrophic verbal responsion by Dr J. H. H.
Schmidt {Griechische Metrik, § 27) was next examined. Dr
Schmidt, while denying to the Greek poets rhyme in the modern
sense (what have frequently been treated as rh)mies in classic Greek
being, from his point of view, rhetorical rather than poetical phe-
nomena, or even due to the exigencies of expression), emphasizes
the existence of what he terms Strophenreime (strophic rhymes). "



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 hrs (2014-10-02 07:52:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

To elucidate the wider ("parole") sense of "propos", according to Le Grand Robert:

"Paroles dites au sujet de qqn. ou de qqch., mots échangés, prononcés au cours d'une conversation. Par ext. Phrase, texte écrit. ➙ Discours, parole, phrase (supra cit. 15). Échange de propos. ➙ Conversation, entretien. Les propos d'un personnage de roman, d'une pièce de théâtre (→ Nombre, cit. 28). Vivacité dans les propos. De propos en propos (→ De fil en aiguille*, cit. 11). Répéter un propos inutile (→ Opportunité, cit. 2). Propos en l'air. ➙ Bruit. ...

" ... Ling. Ce qu'on dit de qqch. (appelé le thème). ➙ Prédicat, 1. thème."

B D Finch
France
Local time: 12:19
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 10
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