scolaire

English translation: a student work

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:une partition scolaire
English translation:a student work
Entered by: B D Finch

13:07 Aug 8, 2012
French to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Music / music critic's review of Debussy's work
French term or phrase: scolaire
I am searching for a word that will encompass the French here. Academic, scholarly, scolastic all sound wrong to me. I The work is clearly considered limited (although interesting), immature, none too original, etc. Any bright ideas?

Debussy avait vingt ans lorsqu’il compose Salut Printemps pour chœur de voix de femmes sur un poème du comte de Ségur pour l'examen d'essai du concours de Rome. C'est une partition assez scolaire, mais qui vaut largement la redécouverte. On y dénote l'emploi de deux harpes, en fait le goût du musicien pour les combinaisons sonores inusitées, premiers témoignages de son avenir impressionniste. La partition ne fut publiée qu'en mai 1928, après sa première audition le 2 avril par la Société des Concerts du Conservatoire de Paris sous la direction de Marius- François Gaillard. Comme Salut printemps, l’Invocation était destinée à l'examen précédant le concours de Rome
ormiston
Local time: 16:53
student
Explanation:
i.e. immature and pre-professional. Done while he was still learning the ropes.

www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/articles/straussr/.../quar...
"Yet this is not really a student work, but one of Strauss' most successful chamber pieces, in many ways more substantial than the more popular cello sonata, and ..."

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Note added at 26 mins (2012-08-08 13:33:22 GMT)
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www.concertonet.com/scripts/review.php?ID_review=1656
"Scriabin's Piano Concerto is really a student work, the first significant orchestral composition of this mixed media mystic. The composer himself premiered it in ..."

www.youngcomposers.com › › Piano Music, Solo Keyboard
"I only wrote it about 7 months after I started composing so its really a student work and not really in line with stuff I am writing now."

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Note added at 5 hrs (2012-08-08 18:41:08 GMT)
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This is not about "elementary school", but university level work, which can be very polished, complex, clever etc., but still lack maturity and judgment.
Selected response from:

B D Finch
France
Local time: 16:53
Grading comment
This helped me towards a solution
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +7student
B D Finch
4 +6elementary
Kévin Bernier
3 -1instructive, of pedagocical value
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
3 -1academic
kashew


Discussion entries: 11





  

Answers


7 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +6
scolaire (here)
elementary


Explanation:
I don't believe it could be possible to translate this in English and still hold on to the same connotation as the word used in French. In this context, "scolaire" merely means basic, simple and unsophisticated.

The word "elementary" slightly calls back to elementary schools and what not, so I suppose it is the closest thing you will ever get to the notion implied in the French word.

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Note added at 8 mins (2012-08-08 13:16:07 GMT)
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To my mind, "elementary" expresses a basic notion which we learn about early in life and constitutes the base of a given knowledge. Most everything we learn early in life comes from school, so...

Might be a convoluted train of thought though.

Kévin Bernier
France
Local time: 16:53
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Katarina Peters: right on!
3 mins
  -> Thank you.

agree  Turcotte Lyne
6 mins
  -> Thank you.

agree  Bertrand Leduc
36 mins
  -> Thank you.

agree  Alison Sabedoria (X): A possibility, but I still prefer "student" or "texbook".
49 mins
  -> Thank you. I like "textbook" aswell.

agree  mimi 254
1 hr
  -> Thank you.

neutral  Nikki Scott-Despaigne: I agree with your comments on my suggestion. "Elementary" is closer but still not quite there IMO though as a work can be "scolaire" without being elementary.
3 hrs
  -> Hmm I really don't know. It is mostly the "redécouverte" thing that makes me hesitant to agree with B D's answer.

agree  Mark Hamlen
5 hrs
  -> Thank you.

neutral  Helen Shiner: I think elementary suggests it is far more simple than may necessarily be the case. I believe it means he is following strictures or what he has learnt at the conservatoire, not yet having the wherewithal to branch out in his own way to find his own style
5 hrs

disagree  kashew: Going too far, as Helen says.
22 hrs

agree  Just Opera: i.e. he hadn't found his own style yet and was a bit unsophisticated
1 day 9 hrs
  -> Thank you.
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24 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): -1
instructive, of pedagocical value


Explanation:
As an alternative to Kévin's suggestion. A piece of music, ike a piece of writing, can be anything but elementary yet still be described as "scolaire" in France. It may read as "instructive" in the sense of having pedagogical value. It has been used as a Grade V level for piano in the past by some UK examination boards. Not necessarily that basic, nor elementary. You can YouTube it.

"Scholarly" is of course a false friend here.

PS : It's good idea to avoid "here" here or anywhere in the header as people seldom search the glossary for those words!

Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Local time: 16:53
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 7
Notes to answerer
Asker: but don't you detect a critical slant ?- i.e. the writer sees this work as (merely) that of a duitiful student, far from Debussy's later 'consummate' works


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Kévin Bernier: I beg to differ, Nikki. Pay closer attention to the full sentence. In my opinion, it can't be anything else than "simple", as this is a mere description and characterization of the music. A pedagogic notion would need more to go on.
4 mins
  -> You are right. I am off the mark here.

disagree  Daryo: on the contrary - "une partition assez scolaire" is the end product of what a student has learned, made according to rules, not an inspired one. This particular work probably is of pedagogical value, but that's not the meaning of the source term.
18 hrs
  -> I know and have said so.
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12 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): -1
scolaire (here)
academic


Explanation:
*

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Note added at 18 minutes (2012-08-08 13:26:00 GMT)
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http://www.esm.rochester.edu/debussy/welcome/
See Para. 2

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Note added at 24 minutes (2012-08-08 13:31:54 GMT)
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Maybe "conventional (for the time)" then?

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Note added at 1 heure (2012-08-08 14:26:54 GMT)
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What about "More or less conventional"
e.g. "As in all his early pieces, this one demonstrates Debussy's ability to stay within more or less ***conventional*** bounds (or not win the prize) while managing to spice things up with original twists of melody and harmony."

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Note added at 2 heures (2012-08-08 15:14:42 GMT)
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See http://www.xingfubanjia.cn/Blog/DEBUSSY-Music-for-the-Prix-d...

kashew
France
Local time: 16:53
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 16
Notes to answerer
Asker: I have considered it but wonder if it sounds a little 'bookish'.

Asker: Thank you for the link. However 'academic' there refers to the sort of music he deliberately rejected. The early work mentioned in my posting was before he 'saw the light' sort of thing. What do you think Kashew?


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Kévin Bernier: The use of "academic" in the paragraph you quote is nowhere near the meaning intended in the sentence used in the asker's question. // Well I always dislike the big red "-1", but I indeed disagree.
11 mins
  -> Why not vote "disagree" then?

neutral  Nikki Scott-Despaigne: Academic is accurate for scholarly, but scholarly is a false friend for "scolaire". Check Larousse or CNRTL.
12 mins
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24 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +7
scolaire (here)
student


Explanation:
i.e. immature and pre-professional. Done while he was still learning the ropes.

www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/articles/straussr/.../quar...
"Yet this is not really a student work, but one of Strauss' most successful chamber pieces, in many ways more substantial than the more popular cello sonata, and ..."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 26 mins (2012-08-08 13:33:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

www.concertonet.com/scripts/review.php?ID_review=1656
"Scriabin's Piano Concerto is really a student work, the first significant orchestral composition of this mixed media mystic. The composer himself premiered it in ..."

www.youngcomposers.com › › Piano Music, Solo Keyboard
"I only wrote it about 7 months after I started composing so its really a student work and not really in line with stuff I am writing now."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2012-08-08 18:41:08 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

This is not about "elementary school", but university level work, which can be very polished, complex, clever etc., but still lack maturity and judgment.

B D Finch
France
Local time: 16:53
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 12
Grading comment
This helped me towards a solution

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Alison Sabedoria (X): I think this comes closest.
21 mins
  -> Thanks Wordeffect

agree  cc in nyc: he was still at the Conservatoire
33 mins
  -> Thanks cc.

agree  Nikki Scott-Despaigne: Yes, avoids the assessment inherent in "elementary" for example.
3 hrs
  -> Thanks Nikki

agree  Helen Shiner: Yes, of the academy, when still learning by rote.
5 hrs
  -> Thanks Helen

agree  claude-andrew: Yes; I had a few ideas, but I think this is the simplest and most accurate way.
6 hrs
  -> Thanks Claude-Andrew

neutral  Daryo: how are you going to fit that in the sentence? you meant "a student work"?
18 hrs
  -> I'd have thought that was obvious from my explanation. As the Asker only posted "scolaire", I gave a one word answer for the sake of the glossary.

agree  kashew: Of course!
22 hrs
  -> Thanks kashew

neutral  Just Opera: He also composed what are considered great works as a student, so this does not fit here.
1 day 8 hrs
  -> Yes, it does fit. The question is to translate the source text, not to write an alternative opinion. The source: "C'est une partition assez scolaire" is making a statement about this particular work, not about his total output as a student.

agree  Yolanda Broad
2 days 12 hrs
  -> Thanks Yolanda
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