juridicité

English translation: Juridicity

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:juridicité
English translation:Juridicity
Entered by: Sheila Hardie

05:54 Sep 18, 2019
French to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law (general)
French term or phrase: juridicité
***juridicité***, définie comme “la propriété des pratiques sociales de répondre à une finalité par une contrainte”, pour la réalisation de ces droits

I am not sure what the proper English translation of this term would be. I don't think that 'juridicity' is correct. I found a discussion about this term online (https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/juridicité.2213869/) but am still unsure.

Many thanks in advance!


Sheila
Sheila Hardie
Spain
Local time: 16:03
Juridicity
Explanation:
Honestly I would stick with this. It's a very specific legal jargon term that is used in scholarly texts, but if that's the type of text you're translating, that's what you should use.

It means "legality" or "legalness" in the sense of "is the system we are discussing legal in nature" (as opposed to legality in the sense of "is the action we're discussing legal to do"). A few links:

"Some Critical Comments on the Juridicity of Lex Mercatoria"
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1805805

"Where is the Law Living? Juridicity and Methods of Research in the Works of Susan Silbey"
https://www.cairn-int.info/article-E_DRS1_100_0645--where-is...

"Juridicity as a theme in French legal philosophy"
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01106125

"Juridicity in the Church: A Critical Study of the Different Methodological Approaches to the Question of the Existence of the Juridical Factor in the Church"
https://books.google.com/books/about/Juridicity_in_the_Churc...


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 days (2019-09-26 15:46:30 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Big picture, regardless of tone, the correct translation has to fit the definition in the Asker's text: "juridicity" is the capacity of social practices to "répondre à une finalité par une contrainte." In other words, their capacity of promoting the achievement of a goal by imposing a constraint that makes it easier or more desirable to achieve that goal.

Legal example: to promote public safety and accountability, we want cars to be in good operating condition and covered by car insurance (the goals). We therefore impose constraints that make the vast majority of people meet those goals: annual inspections, hefty tickets if you drive without a current inspection, hefty tickets and potentially jail if you drive without insurance (the constraints).

Social example: in cultures where people share the goal of universal or near-universal marital fidelity, people impose intense social stigma on married people who cheat, and on the people they cheat with.

This is what juridicity means: functioning LIKE a set of laws. Not actually BEING a set of laws, and not being enforceable in court, etc.
Selected response from:

Eliza Hall
United States
Local time: 10:03
Grading comment
Thank you all for your answers, advice and the interesting debate! In the end, I thought that juridicity was the term that best suited my context. Thank you once again!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +3Juridicity
Eliza Hall
5amenability to being settled by legal means, legal nature
Jo Durning
4legal enforceability of social practices
Daryo
3Legitimateness
Adrian MM.
3 -2legitimate measures
SafeTex
3 -2legal authority
Ben Gaia
Summary of reference entries provided
TERMIUM Plus
Thomas Miles
Perhaps an alternative definition would help here
AllegroTrans

Discussion entries: 7





  

Answers


25 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): -2
legal authority


Explanation:
My take on the definition in English.

Ben Gaia
New Zealand
Local time: 02:03
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 48

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Daryo: you could at a stretch say that these "social practices" are protected by legal authority, but in themselves they have no legal authority whatsoever - the source of "legal authority" is the law, not social customs.
11 hrs
  -> Point taken, I like your suggestion.

disagree  Eliza Hall: Daryo is right re social practices. But the biggest problem with this translation is that juridicity isn't the legal AUTHORITY of something but the legalness/legal nature of something.
8 days
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
Legitimateness


Explanation:
vs. justiciability or amenability to court resolution.

One translation: (of a problem etc) amenability to being settled by legal means; legal nature (Bridge)

juricidad (ESP) - affirmative tendency in favo(u)r of the rule of law (Butterworths); legality (Robb); rightfulness (Alcaraz & Hughes).

antijuricidad (ESP): unlawfulness or lack of a justification (West).




Example sentence(s):
  • Justiciability concerns the limits upon legal issues over which a court can exercise its judicial authority
  • Legal rationality and legitimate authority. Under rational-legal authority, legitimacy is seen as coming from a legal order and the laws that have been enacted in it (see also natural law and legal positivism).

    Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimacy_(political)
    Reference: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/legitimateness
Adrian MM.
United Kingdom
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 160

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  EirTranslations
37 mins
  -> Thanks and merci!

neutral  Ben Gaia: Now "amenability to court resolution" I approve of. Words like Justiceability have only academic meaning.//Synchronicity - saw this very word in the Guardian Supreme Court report today! First time in my life though. :)
11 hrs
  -> It's justiciability actually - a term oft-used by the US & UK courts - & had been a 'close runner'//1983 for the release of the The Police (Anglo-Am.) band's music album of Synchronicity is going way back - not so, the US science fiction film in 2015.

neutral  Daryo: it's a different aspect - that would about some social practices being or not being illegal - the ST is about social practices that can or can not be imposed by legal means. //yes
12 hrs
  -> imposed - you mean sanctioned, namely blessed, by legal means.

disagree  Eliza Hall: This translation doesn't fit the definition given in the Asker's text.
8 days
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6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): -2
legitimate measures


Explanation:
Hello
Given the precise definition in the question itself, I'd say that "legitimate measures" is right..



    Reference: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TA-8-2017-0402_...
    Reference: http://www.fao.org/3/W4982E/w4982e05.htm
SafeTex
France
Local time: 16:03
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 79

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Daryo: = la propriété des pratiques sociales ?
5 hrs

disagree  Eliza Hall: The meaning is off, and so is the tone/register.
8 days
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12 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
juridicité des pratiques sociales
legal enforceability of social practices


Explanation:
***juridicité***, définie comme “la propriété des pratiques sociales de répondre à une finalité par une contrainte”, pour la réalisation de ces droits.

Il semble plutôt évident qu'il est question ici uniquement de la

"juridicité des pratiques sociales"

"... répondre à une finalité par une contrainte" => "enforceability" through the legal system

For something more general, that could cover any use of "juridicité"

legalistic character ?


Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:03
Native speaker of: Native in SerbianSerbian, Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 171

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Ben Gaia
1 hr
  -> Thanks!

neutral  Adrian MM.: This turns the - misleadingly narrow - definition on its head and confuses the imposition with the validity of 'social practices'.
3 hrs

disagree  Eliza Hall: It's not about enforcing social practices in court. It's about the capacity of social practices themselves to function legalistically (i.e. as laws do) by creating constraints that support certain goals.
7 days
  -> YES IT IS - it's about "social customs / practices" that ARE translated into actual enforceable laws / incorporated into the legal system.
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1 day 10 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
amenability to being settled by legal means, legal nature


Explanation:
It's in the Council of Europe French to English legal dictionary (F.H.S. Bridge), and I can (just about) see how it lines up with the definition.



Jo Durning
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:03
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 6

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Yvonne Gallagher
20 hrs

disagree  Eliza Hall: That doesn't fit the definition set forth in the Asker's text ("la propriété des pratiques sociales de répondre à une finalité par une contrainte").
6 days
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1 day 10 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +3
Juridicity


Explanation:
Honestly I would stick with this. It's a very specific legal jargon term that is used in scholarly texts, but if that's the type of text you're translating, that's what you should use.

It means "legality" or "legalness" in the sense of "is the system we are discussing legal in nature" (as opposed to legality in the sense of "is the action we're discussing legal to do"). A few links:

"Some Critical Comments on the Juridicity of Lex Mercatoria"
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1805805

"Where is the Law Living? Juridicity and Methods of Research in the Works of Susan Silbey"
https://www.cairn-int.info/article-E_DRS1_100_0645--where-is...

"Juridicity as a theme in French legal philosophy"
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01106125

"Juridicity in the Church: A Critical Study of the Different Methodological Approaches to the Question of the Existence of the Juridical Factor in the Church"
https://books.google.com/books/about/Juridicity_in_the_Churc...


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 days (2019-09-26 15:46:30 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Big picture, regardless of tone, the correct translation has to fit the definition in the Asker's text: "juridicity" is the capacity of social practices to "répondre à une finalité par une contrainte." In other words, their capacity of promoting the achievement of a goal by imposing a constraint that makes it easier or more desirable to achieve that goal.

Legal example: to promote public safety and accountability, we want cars to be in good operating condition and covered by car insurance (the goals). We therefore impose constraints that make the vast majority of people meet those goals: annual inspections, hefty tickets if you drive without a current inspection, hefty tickets and potentially jail if you drive without insurance (the constraints).

Social example: in cultures where people share the goal of universal or near-universal marital fidelity, people impose intense social stigma on married people who cheat, and on the people they cheat with.

This is what juridicity means: functioning LIKE a set of laws. Not actually BEING a set of laws, and not being enforceable in court, etc.

Eliza Hall
United States
Local time: 10:03
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 113
Grading comment
Thank you all for your answers, advice and the interesting debate! In the end, I thought that juridicity was the term that best suited my context. Thank you once again!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Michael Confais (X)
5 days
  -> Merci.

agree  AllegroTrans
8 days
  -> Merci.

agree  Daryo: mostly - the "juridicity" in matters of marital fidelity IS translated in actual enforceable laws" - check the situation in Saudi Arabia, Iran (and more ...) or closer to home past laws in Europe ...
12 days
  -> That's true in some countries. I was talking about modern Europe and America.
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Reference comments


27 mins peer agreement (net): +3
Reference: TERMIUM Plus

Reference information:
As ever, excellent ressources from the Canadians:

https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2guides/guides/juridi/i...


    https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2guides/guides/juridi/index-fra.html?lang=fra&lettr=indx_catlog_j&page=9mlIoU1GFsZg.html
Thomas Miles
France
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4
Note to reference poster
Asker: Many thanks, Thomas - that's a very good explanation. How would you translate the term into English?


Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  Ph_B (X): Certainly a good, reliable starting point.
5 mins
agree  Daryo: Good starting point!
11 hrs
agree  Germaine: Avec supplément de contextualisation: https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2guides/guides/juridi/i...
1 day 14 hrs
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6 days peer agreement (net): +1
Reference: Perhaps an alternative definition would help here

Reference information:
juridicité

Le suffixe -ité étant formateur de substantifs qui marquent le sens qu’exprime le mot base, la juridicité désigne le caractère de ce qui est juridique. La qualification de juridique (ou, a contrario, de non juridique) exige la possession (ou non) d’un critère sûr de la juridicité.

Ce néologisme s’emploie pour désigner ou souligner la qualité de ce qui est juridique, de ce qui relève du droit. On ne met plus les guillemets pour indiquer que le mot est nouveau et qu’il entre définitivement dans l’usage.
Lorsqu’un auteur traite de la juridicité d’une règle, il examine son caractère proprement juridique, exclusion faite de toute autre considération, qu’elle soit morale, administrative, sociologique, ethnographique ou politique.

S’il s’agit de déterminer la qualité d’un ordre normatif, sa juridicité sera fonction de son appartenance exclusive à un ordre juridique. « Les questions de juridicité supposent la référence à un concept de droit auquel on confronte un objet. »
La juridicité du vocabulaire renvoie aux mots qui relèvent du vocabulaire juridique, aux termes juridiques, aux mots qui sont porteurs d’un sens juridique, qui ont un sens au regard du droit. La juridicité du sens d’un mot signifie que ce mot appartient par son sens ou par sa charge sémantique au vocabulaire du droit; il constitue l’un des signes de la spécificité du langage du droit.
Le critère de la juridicité du discours désigne le caractère juridique d’un discours donné, pour signifier que ce discours est juridique à la fois comme acte linguistique et comme acte juridique. La langue, le vocabulaire et le style même ne sont pas des éléments constitutifs nécessaires de la juridicité du message puisqu’un discours peut être dit juridique soit directement, parce qu’il établit ou dit le droit (le discours législatif et le discours juridictionnel), soit, plus généralement, parce qu’il concourt à la réalisation du droit (le discours juridique général, le discours doctrinal). Somme toute, la juridicité du discours, son caractère juridique, tient à la finalité du message. Est juridique tout message qui tend à l’établissement ou à l’application des normes de droit. En ce sens, la juridicité du message ressortit au caractère juridique de la norme énoncée.
On parle du degré de juridicité d’une expression, d’une règle, d’une proposition, d’un précepte, d’un principe, d’une théorie, d’une doctrine, d’une directive d’interprétation, d’une maxime, d’une sentence, d’un adage pour désigner la mesure dans laquelle ils se rattachent au droit. « Tous les adages ne présentent pas le même degré de juridicité. » La question première de leur juridicité est leur appartenance au droit, leur fonction dans le discours; quand ils sont porteurs d’une norme de droit, d’une règle technique, d’un principe général, d’une directive d’interprétation ou d’une explication fondamentale, ils présentent un degré de juridicité suffisant.
Le champ d’investigation propre au juriste, aussi bien dire le domaine de la juridicité dans lequel il exerce son activité et oriente ses réflexions, est le droit positif.
La juridicité du signe (pour le distinguer de l’indice) est le caractère juridique que présente le signe matériel, concret, par son origine (c’est le droit qui l’a créé), par son contenu (c’est le droit qui gouverne son contenu), par son régime (c’est le droit qui régit son utilisation), par sa caractéristique fondamentale (fondée sur l’intention de communication juridique et la substance juridique du message transmis par le signe). Un signe est juridique quand il est porteur d’un message juridique, par exemple l’enseigne commerciale ou la borne qui délimite un terrain.
Pour un éclairage théorique sur les différents sens du mot juridicité dans la perspective de la théorie et de la sociologie du droit, se reporter au Dictionnaire encyclopédique de théorie et de sociologie du droit publié sous la direction d’André-Jean Arnaud.


    https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2guides/guides/juridi/index-fra.html?lang=fra&lettr=indx_catlog_j&page=9mlIoU1GFsZg.html
AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 1099

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  Eliza Hall
3 days 14 hrs
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