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This question was closed without grading. Reason: No acceptable answer
French to English translations [PRO] Law/Patents - Law (general)
French term or phrase:possession d'état
court case involving ordering of genetic testing
XXX is registered as the father of the child but is probably not the biological father. The child is very young. XXX is now dead.
"Dans les conditions données le tribunal considère ... qu'en l'occurrence l'intérêt de l'enfant, qui n'a aucune possession d'état à l'encontre de XXX, consiste à être fixé sur la réalité de sa filiation, plutôt que de rester dans l'incertitude à ce sujet ..."
From Bridge I get, for "possession d'état", "actual enjoyment of a certain civil status", "public acceptance of a person's status", "de facto enjoyment of a certain status". What to make of "à l'encontre de XXX" then?
It appears from the sentence as given that the lack of "possession d'état à l'encontre de XXX" is one reason at least why the child's interests are considered to be best met by clarifying the biological reality of its parentage. So if it did have "possession d'état à l'encontre de XXX", it appears to be said, this might be a strong enough reason NOT to do genetic testing...
1. De Facto Parenthood A de facto, or psychological, parent is a common law concept that defines a parent “by virtue of a parent-like, caretaking role in relation to the child.” This test defines nonbiological parenthood by functionality. If the coparent acts like a parent, meaning he or she cares physically and emotionally for the child in a parental capacity without an expectation of compensation, the court may find him or her to be a de facto parent.
This definition of parenthood takes the emphasis off of genetic connection, and focuses on real-life interaction; a parent is a person who parents a child.
Sounds very much like possession d'état to me .... (but don't mention the "common law concept"!!)
see my comment about Daryo's ref entry. I'm suggesting "parentage" is about biology but actually "parenthood" is sthg that in law can be acquired regardless of biology. So I'd personally agree with Tim on this one: "absence of childhood of a parent" must be put another way. The thing I'd like to put is "who does not have any emotional relationship with XXX"... surely the court's position is that the only thing which could possibly trump the wish to enlighten the child through genetic testing would be a strong emotional bond. But the trouble with this is that it's not a translation, it's an interpolation (however credible!)
I'm afraid I don't think that to claim "parenthood of a child" sounds natural. Surely, one would claim to be a child's parent? Parenthood is the state/condition of being a parent, having to get up in the middle of the night to feed and change nappies, enduring constant claims on one's energy, patience, time, wallet, ears etc. plus, of course all the nice aspects. Legally, one might claim parental rights and duties.
There are many examples of "de facto parenthood", but what makes this ST "difficult" is that it takes a different standpoint by referring to "de facto childhood" (ie de facto affiliation).
To claim "parenthood of a child" sounds natural. To claim "childhood of a parent" is, well, just weird, hence the difficulty finding an appropriate translation. But that is the way it is seen in French law - a child can claim "possession d'état" to get a judge to declare, in an acte de notoriété, who the child's legal parents were (usually after death of a parent).
Evgeny Artemov (X)
South Africa
then why not "in relation to"
15:00 Jun 11, 2014
as was suggested here earlier?
Also, if you see it this way (so do I now), will "confirmed" or "proven" or "official" before "legal civil status" help?
the court knows many things... but it emphatically does not know whether XXX is the father of the child. So when the court asserts "l'enfant ... n'a aucune poss. d'état à l'encontre de XXX" we know they are NOT talking about "affiliation" (parentage)
The Bridge definition is one definition, but it does not, in my humble opinion, fit with the meanings provided under the Code Civil, particularly the definition under the provisions of art. 311.- as they apply to the circumstances set out in the post.
@Mpoona. If you say that XXX is currently the de facto father, that means you are saying XXX is the father in fact. If you say that XXX is the de jure father, that means he is the father according to the law. XX is either the de facto papa, or the de jure papa. He cannot be both!
That aside, that matter is not anything to do with the term "possession d'état". That is quite simply and unequivocally as provided under the terms of the Code Civil.
Etablissement de la possession d'état : o en matière de filiation : code civil, art. 311-1 et s. et 317 o en matière de nationalité française : code civil, art. 32-2 et s.
Evgeny Artemov (X)
South Africa
Nikki is right
14:19 Jun 11, 2014
and legal civil status ... arising out of affiliation to XXX looks closest to home if not the only solution meeting two conditions: it does the job and remains legal. It's court language m'learned friends will deal in the UK, I presume.
yes, what I like about Tim's suggestion (in the discussion here, not his answer) is the choice of the 3rd Bridge definition, which has the words "de facto"... the father of the child is for the moment XXX, and that is a legal relationship, but XXX is not a "de facto" (for that read emotional) father-figure (or any figure) in the child's life. This is what I take to be the gist. How it should be phrased for and by m'learned friends in UK I haven't a clue.
Except this is about one of the two very specific meanings of "possession d'état" under the French Code civil and so in my view, there is every reason to use legalese. However, the idea of legalese is not to blind folk with science, but to convey specific meaning with the right term in the circumstances.
THis is not to do with a "certain" status, this is all to do with a very precise meaning of legal and civil status which can be enjoyed if established.
...the issue here is that as the child has never had any 'real' status with respect to its late father, the least it might have is the 'technical' status of knowing who its biological father was?
Many people here seem to be reading this almost the other way round...
As XXX is now dead, it would be hard for him to act like a father towards the child. Establishing biological fatherhood would not change XXX's behaviour to the child in the past, so it must be about legal status and the various aspects of the child's interest, when it is older, in having certainty about whether or not XXX was its biological father.
this is the exact same def as the third Bridge one I gave. And yes, I'm tending to think you're right about the gist... though I think getting the correct legal expression is important.
This is the Harrap's/Dalloz translation of possession d'état, which is more meaningful than "possession of status".
I think we can all understand the basis meaning of the text - the child has no one who acts like a father towards him (or, as in the ST, no one he can say has acted as though he was his son).
Now all we have to do is put that into sensible English. IMO, there is no need to opt for legalese when ordinary language will do a better job.
"Possession d'état... à l'encontre de XXX". What do the XXXs stand for here?
Evgeny Artemov (X)
South Africa
D'accord
11:07 Jun 11, 2014
But it's hardly general use. Legal writers use it, and not always because they don't bother to find a better term (rather, for the same reason they keep rue in addresses instead of "street"). The UN translator (supposed to be good) uses both (in order to keep the term, I presume): It is now possible to establish filiation for illegitimate children, either through recognition or through paternity proceedings, where the child does not have possession of status consistent with the birth certificate (art. 315) or where the mother contests the child’s paternity in order to have the child recognized by the real father, married after the dissolution of her marriage.
"Possession", or the verb "to possess" are not generally used in English with regard to status. The preferred verb in this context is "to have".
Evgeny Artemov (X)
South Africa
"possession d'état", as term of art
10:19 Jun 11, 2014
is an established French legal presumption, used here in a court document. I am not sure it can be rendered descriptively. I found a few EN texts (incl. two UN docs in FR and EN supposed to be authentic) using this, and the EN goes for literal translation: "possession of status". As for "à l'encontre de", "in relation to" fits, I think.
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
38 mins confidence:
possession d\'état
the parents' attitude towards the child
Explanation: I think this can only be translated with an explanation of the French term:
La possession d'état découle de l'attitude du [père] à l'égard de l'enfant : il l'élève comme le sien, s'occupe de son entretien et de son éducation. La possession d'état doit être continue, paisible, publique et non équivoque.
The child cannot consider that XXX is his real father as he does not have an unbroken, uncontested, publicly-known and unequivocal relationship with him [possession d'état], so it is in his interest to know who his biological father actually is ....
Tim Webb France Local time: 15:12 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 67
4 hrs confidence: peer agreement (net): +1
possession d'état ... à l'encontre de XXX
legal civil status ... arising out of affiliation to XXX
Explanation: This suggestion can be improved upon. My own criticism of this suggestion is that it is almost an overtranslation. However, the difficulty is that given the two possible meanings of the term "possession d'état" under French law, I think it is essential to specify which meaning is intended, although it is obvious. Sometimes stating the obvious is necessary.
There are two ways in which « possession d’état » can be demonstrated under French law :filiation and nationality. Assuming that this is a matter of affiliation, the most likely way to go, judging by the context of course, then I’ve cited art. 311-1 of the French Code Civil. On the matter of affiliation generally, my third reference may help.
Etablissement de la possession d'état : o en matière de filiation : code civil, art. 311-1 et s. et 317 o en matière de nationalité française : code civil, art. 32-2 et s.
Article 311-1 • Modifié par Ordonnance n°2005-759 du 4 juillet 2005 - art. 2 JORF 6 juillet 2005 en vigueur le 1er juillet 2006 • Modifié par Ordonnance n°2005-759 du 4 juillet 2005 - art. 5 JORF 6 juillet 2005 en vigueur le 1er juillet 2006 La possession d'état s'établit par une réunion suffisante de faits qui révèlent le lien de filiation et de parenté entre une personne et la famille à laquelle elle est dite appartenir.
Les principaux de ces faits sont :
1° Que cette personne a été traitée par celui ou ceux dont on la dit issue comme leur enfant et qu'elle-même les a traités comme son ou ses parents ;
2° Que ceux-ci ont, en cette qualité, pourvu à son éducation, à son entretien ou à son installation ;
3° Que cette personne est reconnue comme leur enfant, dans la société et par la famille ;
4° Qu'elle est considérée comme telle par l'autorité publique ;
5° Qu'elle porte le nom de celui ou ceux dont on la dit issue.
Modifié par Ordonnance n°2005-759 du 4 juillet 2005 - art. 2 JORF 6 juillet 2005 en vigueur le 1er juillet 2006
Tous les enfants dont la filiation est légalement établie ont les mêmes droits et les mêmes devoirs dans leurs rapports avec leur père et mère. Ils entrent dans la famille de chacun d'eux.
Établissement de la filiation par possession d'état Mise à jour le 04.01.2013 - Direction de l'information légale et administrative (Premier ministre) et Ministère en charge de la justice
Principe
La possession d'état est la prise en compte de la réalité vécue du lien de filiation. Elle s'établit par une réunion suffisante de faits qui révèlent le lien de filiation et de parenté entre un enfant et la famille à laquelle il est dit appartenir. Un acte de notoriété peut être demandé pour prouver la possession d'état. Il est délivré par le juge.
La possession d’état La possession d’état est une situation de fait qui offre toutes les apparences d’une situation de droit. Posséder un état, c’est en avoir l’apparence et être considéré en général comme titulaire de cet état. Elle occupe une place essentielle pour deux raisons principales :...
Premium1244 Mots5 Pages
• Etat unitaire et état fédéral PARTIE 1 : LES PERSONNES : La personne au sens juridique du terme est un être susceptible de bénéficier de droits et qui dispose de la personnalité juridique. La personne est sujet de droit et elle n'est pas objet de droit. La personne s'oppose donc aux biens car les biens sont eux objets de dro...
Premium7880 Mots32 Pages
• État civil: la filiation ETAT CIVIL : FILIATION La filiation est le lien de droit qui unit un enfant à son père et à sa mère. La réforme de la filiation appliquée depuis le 1er juillet 2006 a supprimé les anciennes notions de filiation légitime et naturelle et s’inscrit dans un double mouvement d’évolution...
Le rôle de la possession d’état en droit de la filiation
I. Le rôle de la possession d'état dans la preuve de la filiation A. Les qualités de la possession d'état B. La consolidation ou la fragilisation de la filiation
II. Le rôle de la possession d'état dans l'établissement de la filiation A. L'établissement de la filiation B. Contestation de la filiation
Résumé de l’exposé.
La possession d’état repose sur l’apparence. Elle est une notion originale qui est plus ou moins reconnue par le législateur, selon les époques, mais elle est un précieux complément en droit de la filiation. Dans le cadre de l’ordonnance du 4 juillet 2005, le législateur lui a donné pour mission la stabilité des filiations. Les éléments constitutifs de lapossession sont inchangés et expliquent le rôle qui est le sien dans lafiliation. La possession d’état se compose de trois éléments classiques: le tractatus, le nomen, la fama. Le tractatus, c’est la vie de famille, le comportement des proches, l’articles 311-1 du Code civil l’explique en ces termes: « cette personne a été traitée par celui ou ceux dont on la dit issue comme leur enfant ». [...] Inversement, l’absence de la possession d’état autorise la contestation de la filiation. Contestation de la filiation: L’article 334 du Code civil précise que à défaut de possession d’état conforme au titre, l’action en contestation peut être engagée par toute personne qui y a intérêt dans le délai prévu à l’article 321 du Code civil Les conditions de l’action sont clairement énoncées. Premièrement, il ne faut pas qu’il y ait une possession d’état conforme au titre. Deuxièmement, une fois établie cette lacune, il faut prouver l’absence de paternité ou de maternité […]
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Local time: 15:12 Works in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 451
Notes to answerer
Asker: "neutral" - the link of "affiliation" (parentage) is as yet in doubt but not refuted
23 mins confidence: peer agreement (net): +1
(has no) legal status
Explanation: I think that your parsing is awkward and that the sentence should be understood as follows: //qui n'a aucune possession d'état// à l'encontre de XXX//. The child has no legal status in relation to XXX and it is proposed to remedy this by testing whether XXX was the biological father.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 10:58:56 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0415149584 Gill Jagger, Caroline Wright - 1999 - Social Science "For example, the unmarried father has the legal status of parent but does not at present automatically acquire parental responsibility (in contrast to the mother ... "
www.cypnow.co.uk › News '“The cases in this report show examples where children and their ... Across England around 145,000 children are cared for by people who are not their parents. ... to carers, if the child has the legal status of a looked-after child.'
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 3 hrs (2014-06-11 13:20:35 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
www.dhsspsni.gov.uk/adopting_the_future-3.pdf "The fact that agreement is required from each parent or guardian is also problematic in that the term “parent” is not defined in the order and must be interpreted in accordance with common law rules. Accordingly, the putative father of an illegitimate child, who does not in law have parental responsibility for the child, has no legal status in relation to the child and his agreement to the adoption is not required unless he has applied for, and been awarded, parental responsibility for the child (in which case his agreement as guardian of the child will be required)."
eprints.hud.ac.uk/13037/1/ahodsonfinalthesis.pdf by A Hodson - 2011 - Cited by 1 - Related articles " ... guidance is contradictory as it does not acknowledge that an unborn child has no legal status and a pregnant woman maintains rights over her own body."
www.nzlii.org › Databases "Private arrangements commonly involve the commissioning father providing his semen for use in .... P's social mother has no legal status in relation to the child."
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 4 hrs (2014-06-11 13:43:21 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
It appears that the court has some reason to order the test to be done. I imagine that is because somebody has challenged the veracity of the registration of XXX as the child's father.
B D Finch France Local time: 15:12 Works in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 509
Notes to answerer
Asker: I don't really know what you mean about my parsing... I agree with your parsing. "No legal status in relation to XXX" strikes me as a bit odd, as XXX is currently registered as the infant's father...
2 hrs confidence:
affiliation
Explanation: "who has no affiliation in respect of the putative father" A term used in such proceedings
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 5 hrs (2014-06-11 14:36:01 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
"In any civil proceedings the fact that a person has been adjudged to be the father of a child in affiliation proceedings in the UK is admissible in evidence", s. 12 Child Evidence Act 1968
John Farebrother United Kingdom Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 11
Notes to answerer
Asker: Wow, "affiliation"... are you sure? Just that this is so close to the FR "filiation" (i.e. "parentage"). If you are sure do you think you might explain what it means, and also maybe give a ref or 2? I note you specialise in this field...
Asker: "affiliation proceedings": "legal proceedings, usually initiated by an unmarried mother, claiming legal recognition that a particular man is the father of her child, often associated with a claim for financial support" - but this is not what the text is saying. At the moment the paternity of the father is not known to the court.
La filiation est le lien juridique qui unit un enfant à ses parents. Que les parents soient mariés ou non, tous les enfants sont aujourd'hui égaux devant la loi. Les discriminations entre enfants légitimes et naturels ont été abrogées.
retour au sommaire
I. La filiation
1. L'établissement légal de la filiation
1.1. Comment prouver la filiation légitime ?
Il existe trois moyens : - Le titre : est l'acte de naissance inscrit sur les registres d'état civil - La possession d'état - La reconnaissance.
1.2. Qu'est ce que la possession d'état?
La possession d'état découle de l'attitude du couple à l'égard de l'enfant : ils l'élèvent comme le leur, s'occupent de son entretien et de son éducation. La possession d'état doit être continue, paisible, publique et non équivoque. Elle doit être constatée par acte de notoriété. ..."
Daryo United Kingdom Native speaker of: Serbian, French PRO pts in category: 196
Note to reference poster
Asker: Revealing. That way of proving "filiation" to be legitimate is absent from the Bridge and Navarre definitions, where "filiation" appears to be a simple matter of biology, as does "affiliation" (EN) as in "affiliation proceedings". I'd suggest "filiation" = "parenthood including status of legal parenthood" as opposed to "parentage" (biological)
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