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This question was closed without grading. Reason: Other
French to English translations [PRO] Social Sciences - Government / Politics / political speech
French term or phrase:qui passe sur nos fils
This is from the speech Jean-Luc Mélenchon gave on Place de la République in Paris in March.
"Écoutez, vous tous, cette clameur qui monte de nos rangs. [...] Ce rugissement ***qui passe sur nos fils***, c'est celui du lion de bronze au pied du monument dont l'auteur a voulu qu'il symbolise le suffrage universel..."
The only sense I've made of it so far is as a reference to communication wires, but that would be pretty outdated in these days of WiFi and 4G - and this is after all Hologram Man speaking!
Very grateful for any bright ideas on the subject, thanks.
(By the way, I'm subtitling this, so any translation of this phrase needs to fit into 36 characters tops :-) )
Although I entirely agree with Charles's (and Victoria's) comments about these rather colloquial uses of 'sur', I really don't think that is relevant here, for the simple reason that 'sur' is a perfectly normal preposition to use with the verb 'passer'; in this instance, if 'à' were to be used instead, it would be equally valid, BUT completely change the meaning. 'passer sur les ondes' is a not unusual, though rather dated, expression in connection with transmission by radio, and I think is perfectly justified if referring to some physical means of communication — or by extension, more figuratively. It's true that in these days of social media, people often seem confused about whether to say 'sur mon journal' or 'dans mon journal', for example... espeically bearing in mind that originally, it was 'sur mon mur'! I find it much harder to reconcile the use of 'sur', even in this highly colloquail usage, with Nikki's otherwise very lateral suggestion of 'files', where used with 'passer', it would almost seem to suggest 'passing over / above...'.
Absolutely - I live in France and can confirm this usage is now widespread - but that is "sur" used (for argument's sake) in place of "à", which is one specific usage that does not apply here. Once again, Mélenchon is a careful user of language: while he might choose to use a preposition the Académie (bless it) is still spluttering over, I don't believe he would just pluck one from the air at random. This is a prepared speech, not just extempore rabble-rousing: I can't help feeling I have to look to that "sur" as one clue to the meaning of "fil(e)s". Sadly, sleeping on it has not proved helpful.
Those who live in France are better qualified to comment, but all I can say is that when I'm there nowadays (most recently at the end of August to help my son find a flat) I hear "sur" used in situations where I wouldn't have expected it. There's this "habiter sur Paris" or "chercher un appartement sur Paris" thing, which has become very common. The following comments are from the French Academy's reply to a query on the subject:
"L'usage de la préposition "sur" quand on attendrait "à" s'est répandue dans la langue populaire ou familière. [...] Cette pauvre préposition sur est harassée. On la met à toutes les sauces." https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/habiter-à-sur-dans-p...
The case before us is different, but maybe it's symptomatic of this excessive use of "sur".
Thanks to all for your contributions. The 'files' idea is very seductive but doesn't really sway me more than the 'fils' that is, as Charles has pointed out, given in all the sources found online (including Le Monde's quotations dictionary), the choice of preposition being another troubling factor. It's very odd: whatever one might think of his politics, Méluche has a better grasp and use of language than, let's say, certain - even most - recent president(ial candidate)s, but in this (no doubt lengthily prepared) speech this metaphor remains unclear, not to say slightly odd. I have to send the blessed thing off first-ish thing tomorrow, so I'm going to sleep on it and see if I can work it out in a dream!
Charles at 9:29 seems more on the mark here, I think.
This could be something like scrolling through newsfeeds on some variety of social media outlets or through other types of websites, apps, etc. And so then that lots of people are coming across that content in those ways.
Not sure of the preferred way to say it, but this seems likely as the underlying concept.
Though all the online copies of Mélenchon's speech have "fils" (not that there are many). But that doesn't rule it out; websites copy from each other, so all it takes is for the first posting to have "fils" and it gets copied to the others.
I think Nikki's feeling is right filEs - it would be logical - rangs...files... a rhetorical device, and Melenchon's ability as an orator is well known
You say that the "l" should be pronounced. There is probably no mistake with "nos" though. That leads me to be convinced that it is not "fils", but "filEs".
Thanks to Charles' comment, I've rethought this one. Maybe "fils" should actually be "fiLEs". It would provide the link with "rangs" (rank) and "filES" (lines). I'd probably avoid the almost insctinctive use of rank and file, but I think the link could actually be there, adn have nothing at all to do with threads, feeds or owt' else.
What do y'all think? I think we might have been roaring up the wrong tree. ;-)
But my difficulty, as I say, is understanding how this "clameur qui monte de nos rangs", this "rugissement", the demands of the people Mélenchon speaks for, could be manifested in timelines, which are simply sources of information on events.
This, which Lorraine suggested, might be the kind of "fils" Mélenchon's talking about, though they're not the same as newfeeds; they're timelines. But both newsfeeds (which emanate from news media) and timelines (which emanate from users of social media) are sources of news and information. I don't understand why the roar Mélenchon refers to should be heard there. Surely this roar, arising from "our ranks" (members of the public who think like Mélenchon, I presume) will be heard in media of commentary, opinion and debate. "Fils" must surely refer to that sort of thing.
Fils, référant aux fils d'actualité sur les réseaux sociaux surtout, donc fils référerait à 'news feed' et pas à fils comme les fils de téléphone. Ce dont il parle c'est que les gens réagissent et partagent leurs désaccords sur les réseaux sociaux. Du moins, c'est ainsi que je l'entends.
OK, I'll have a go. The trouble is that I am not at all a social media person and don't really know how to make it sound convincing. I'll probably get shot down. But still...
Thanks for confirming my feeling (which, in a way I find often happens, became a near certainty as soon as I hit "submit"). BUT I hadn't got as far as "threads", which to my mind does indeed make more sense. Charles, do you want to post an answer?
This is not easy. I agree that this is about buzzing, humming, etc. How though, to account for the link between "rugir" (to roar) and the part about the "lion" it is obviously linked to? Can that image not be maintained? After all, "rugir" is much stronger than hum or buzz.
With Tony on this, but perhaps taking "fils" to mean "threads" rather than "wires". "Fils" quite often seems to refer to that these days: "nos fils Facebook et Twitter", and so on.
I think it is indeed wires... he's making a very modern reference to other places where unrest is expressed... e.g. the Internet with social media etc. OK, at user device level, it may be Wi-Fi etc. — but one still considers the Internet as a whole to be 'over wires (or fibre optics!)', as distinct from, say 'on the streets' or 'over the airwaves' (TSF!)
Vu le contexte du discours, plutôt lyrique, il s'agit des mêmes "fils" que dans la Marseillaise. Cherchez donc une traduction des paroles de la Marseillaise... Cela dit, le terme employé n'est pas parfaitement adapté au contexte, en français. Une certaine liberté de traduction s'impose donc.
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Answers
2 hrs confidence: peer agreement (net): -1
reverberating through our threads
Explanation: Assuming, as I've suggested above, that Mélenchon is referring here to fils (threads) on social media such as Facebook and Twitter. That seems to be where much of the political action is now, so in principle it could make sense.
My proposal just gets under the wire lengthwise: 33 characters including spaces.
I think reverberate goes quite well with roar. But I'm not sure whether literally using "threads" works. My problem is that I don't use this kind of language. So that's for others to judge.
Charles Davis Spain Local time: 01:32 Does not meet criteria Works in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 16
peer agreement (net): -1