donzel

English translation: squire

11:06 Oct 4, 2010
French to English translations [PRO]
Genealogy
French term or phrase: donzel
"Et haut et puissant seigneur Monseigneur Raymond Arnaud de Castaigner, chevalier ***donzel*** de Lauzerte seigneur d’Aucastels, Moncuq, la Valette, Sauveterre, Mondenar, Montesquiou-Durfort, la Montjoye, Campagnac, la Mothe-Durfort et autres places."
Conor McAuley
France
Local time: 03:30
English translation:squire
Explanation:
A society rank.
Selected response from:

amanda solymosi
Hungary
Local time: 03:30
Grading comment
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
5 +6squire
amanda solymosi
3 +3squire
Catharine Cellier-Smart
3 +2Lord-designate
Christopher Crockett
3 +1master
Bourth (X)


Discussion entries: 5





  

Answers


3 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +6
squire


Explanation:
A society rank.


    Reference: http://britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/169218/donzel
amanda solymosi
Hungary
Local time: 03:30
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Alison Sabedoria (X)
12 mins
  -> merci

agree  mimi 254
35 mins
  -> merci

agree  Bourth (X): Though an alternative might be advisable to avoid confusion with the other meaning and origin of the word, écuyer.
36 mins
  -> merci

agree  B D Finch
1 hr
  -> merci

agree  Sylvie Chartier
1 hr
  -> merci

agree  Christopher Crockett: Agree with Bourth --the two meanings of "squire" could lead to an incorrect interpretation.
3 hrs
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
master


Explanation:
If ambiguity is an issue (I fear the proximity of chevalier in the text, and the apparent misuse or absence of punctuation will lead to "squire" being understood as the young fella that accompanies a knight, polishes his armour and otherwise does his bidding), then "master" (as in "master of the castle", only here "Master of Lauzerte") might be a way of getting round it.

At the same time, "master" is little different from "squire", being used as a term of address for a young man (as opposed to "mister") and also as an indication of (lower) authority.

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Note added at 1 hr (2010-10-04 12:15:52 GMT)
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It appears that in Switzerland, at least, a distinction was made between Ecuyer and Donzel "qui n'étoient pas donnés indifféremment à tous les Nobles" :
http://books.google.com/books?id=7ewOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PR21&lpg=PR...

Le mot donzel, comme damoiseau en langue d'oïl et donzello en italien, vient du latin populaire dominicellus, diminutif de dominus, "seigneur"; il correspond à l'allemand Junker (du moyen haut allemand junc-herre, "jeune seigneur"; utilisé dans l'historiographie française au sens de "hobereau prussien"). Aux XIIe et XIIIe s., il s'appliquait à un jeune homme de la noblesse qui, contrairement à son père, n'avait pas encore été adoubé (Chevalerie). A partir du XIVe s., des ministériaux portèrent aussi ce titre, qui transmettait à leurs descendants une distinction nobiliaire et qui, de plus en plus, accompagnait le noble de sa jeunesse jusqu'à sa mort. Dès le XVe s., de riches conseillers bourgeois des villes alémaniques, qui avaient adopté le style de vie de la noblesse en même temps qu'ils en acquéraient les seigneuries, prirent le titre de Junker, lequel devint courant à la fin du XVIe s. dans des familles dirigeantes (patriciens, aristocrates des villes corporatives, détenteurs de seigneuries dans les Grisons), mais aussi chez les grands marchands saint-gallois. Les membres de cette classe étaient souvent officiers au service étranger, entrepreneurs militaires, ou faisaient une carrière dans les charges publiques, quand ils ne séjournaient pas à la campagne dans leur manoir familial. Le terme de Junker apparaît dans diverses appellations moqueuses, contrepartie d'une certaine jalousie des inférieurs: Bettel- und Habermus-Junker (mendiant et mangeur de gruau, pour un donzel appauvri) et Jünkerlin (diminutif) sont attestés à Lucerne en 1615; à Zurich, jusqu'au XIXe s., on traitait de Stadt-Junker ou de Stude-Junker celui qui affectait la distinction. En français, seul reste usité le féminin "donzelle", avec un sens dépréciatif. Depuis le XVe s., Junker est aussi un nom de famille en Haute-Argovie, à Soleure et à Rapperswil (SG).
http://www.hls-dhs-dss.ch/textes/f/F25735.php [Dictionnaire historique de la SUISSE]

Bourth (X)
Local time: 03:30
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Christopher Crockett: I've never come across the term, but you are right about the "chevalier" leading to a misreading of "squire." Thanks for the origin of "junker."
1 hr
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4 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +3
squire


Explanation:

"...close ranks against the intrusion of new men or creditors. They insisted on noble birth as a condition for knighthood, reserving the designation of “squire” (or donzel, in the south) for those of noble birth awaiting or postponing the expensive dubbing (adoubement). At the upper extreme, a noble elite, the..."
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/169218/donzel

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Donzel

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Note added at 1 hr (2010-10-04 12:20:35 GMT)
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other possibilities :

thane - an aristocratic retainer of a king or nobleman in Anglo-Saxon England
or
armiger - in high and late medieval England, the word referred to an esquire attendant upon a knight, but bearing his own unique armorial device.

Catharine Cellier-Smart
Reunion
Local time: 06:30
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Alison Sabedoria (X)
11 mins
  -> thank you

agree  Bourth (X): Though an alternative might be advisable to avoid confusion with the other meaning and origin of the word, écuyer.
35 mins
  -> thank you

agree  B D Finch: Definitely not "thane", which is too Anglo-Saxon (i.e. pre-Conquest), or Scottish (i.e. clan).
1 hr
  -> thank you

neutral  Christopher Crockett: Agree with Bourth --the two meanings of "squire" could lead to an incorrect interpretation.
3 hrs
  -> which is why I've proposed alternatives
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
Lord-designate


Explanation:
I'm still concerned about how it might be that Ray is not (yet) Lord of Lauzarete, when he is clearly old enough to be formally invested with the other seigneuries mentioned. He's not "master" in the sense of being a "[very] young man," but he has some sort of power/claim over this place. The only thing I can think of is that he is the potential Lord of it, but has not yet --for whatever reason-- been formally invested with it by whatever Overlord might be the _capitalis dominus_. Southern France had a variety of customs and laws which were quite different from those in the North --and many of which went back to Roman times. "Lord-designate" is the best, feeble attempt I can come up with to give a sense of this intermediate position he seems to have held viz-a-viz this place.

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Note added at 3 hrs (2010-10-04 14:35:32 GMT)
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christ


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Note added at 3 hrs (2010-10-04 14:37:59 GMT)
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Of course, since the word is in the OED, you could just punt the thing and leave the original --let your reader dig up the archaic meaning for himself.

Christopher Crockett
Local time: 21:30
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Bourth (X): Even in the SOED, now I look. Glad to see I'm not the only one using italics etc... and sometimes screwing up! ;-)
23 mins
  -> So *you're* the one who tempted me into screwing up. Thanks for that.

agree  Alison Sabedoria (X): This could well be the clearest
3 hrs
  -> Thanks, Worde.
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