a structural necessity for sub-groups

English translation: sub-groups are necessary to maintain the social structure

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)

English term or phrase:	a structural necessity for sub-groups
Selected answer:	sub-groups are necessary to maintain the social structure
Entered by:	updownK

11:33 Jun 7, 2017

English language (monolingual) [PRO]
Art/Literary - Poetry & Literature

English term or phrase: a structural necessity for sub-groups

"Drug knowledge originated mostly with males because they tend to be more venturesome – an outgrowth of male aggression. You've read your Orange Catholic Bible, thus you know the story of Eve and the apple. Here's an interesting fact about that story: Eve was not the first to pluck and sample the apple. Adam was first and he learned by this to put the blame on Eve. My story tells you something about how our societies find A STRUCTURAL NECESSITY FOR SUB-GROUPS."
--quoted from the SF fiction God Emperor of Dune (link: https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=“STRUCTURAL NECESSIT...

Orange Catholic Bible here is an adapted version of our Bible, so it has a difference story about Genesis.
What does A STRUCTURAL NECESSITY FOR SUB-GROUPS mean? Does SUB-GROUP refer to "family" as the structural unit of society? Even so I cannot figure out the relation between the story and the last sentence.

updownK KudoZ activity Questions: 74 (none open) Answers: 6 China
Local time: 14:52

sub-groups are necessary to maintain the social structure

Explanation:
My interpretation.

Incidentally, I think that "Orange Catholic Bible" should be seen as a joke. Herbert did set some of his stories in Ireland.

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Note added at 14 mins (2017-06-07 11:48:22 GMT)
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A sub-group is any group within the main society and can be based on gender, family, status or whatever else may be used to divide a society into groups.

Selected response from:

B D Finch
France
Local time: 08:52

Grading comment

Thank you! I think your answer is most accurate.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

SUMMARY OF ALL EXPLANATIONS PROVIDED

4 +5

sub-groups are necessary to maintain the social structure

B D Finch

3 +3

inherent need for lower-status groups (for scapegoating)

magdadh

3 +1

an underlying requisite for [the existence of] classes of a subordinated nature

JohnMcDove

Discussion entries: 5

JohnMcDove

United States

Thank you very much for the excellent links!

23:47 Jun 8, 2017

I don't think we need to split participles, infinitives and hairs. It may be my poor Latin background, but to me, even if it is just "often", this one seems to be one of the contexts where it may be particularly applicable.

We hope the discussion is useful to UpdownK. As Nancy Willard said, or wrote, "Sometimes questions are more important than answers".

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/sub-

On the other hand, I recognize I will have to study up on the Duke of Lemonade, as nobody covered the subject before or after the LOGSE (Spanish Educational Law)! ;-)

B D Finch

France

What is a subgroup?

08:22 Jun 8, 2017

Not always subordinate, because a higher status group, against which a subordinate one is defined, is also a subgroup

https://www.thoughtco.com › ... › Social Sciences › Sociology › Key Concepts
Definition: A subgroup is a collection of people who identify themselves as members of a group that is also part of a larger social system to which they belong.

http://sociologydictionary.org/subgroup/
subgroup
(noun) “[A] distinct and often subordinate group within a group” (Princeton University 2010).

http://www.ldoceonline.com/Sociology-topic/subgroup
sub‧group /ˈsʌbɡruːp/ noun [countable] a separate, smaller, and sometimes less important part of a group

JohnMcDove

United States

@ UpdownK, "sub-" seems to refer simply to

23:54 Jun 7, 2017

"subordinate groups". Good or bad, or otherwise.

updownK

China

ASKER

@ philgoddard

23:49 Jun 7, 2017

"My story" here just refers to the Adam/Eve story. But indeed this story is a hint to a plot of the novel: Malky, an evil man, designed and produced Hwi, an innocent girl, with his own gene to harm the Emporor Leto (the speaker), so Hwi acted as a scapegoat of Malky. But I'm not sure what SUB-GROUPS refers to. Evil/innocent one groups? Good/bad one groups?

philgoddard

United States

14:40 Jun 7, 2017

We don't actually know what "my story" refers to. It's presumably mentioned just before your extract. Is it another example of blaming others for your misfortunes?
The more of these questions I see, the more I think Herbert is good at telling stories, but not at writing English.

Answers

12 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +5

sub-groups are necessary to maintain the social structure

B D Finch
France
Local time: 08:52
Works in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 84

Grading comment

Thank you! I think your answer is most accurate.

Notes to answerer

Asker: Thanks! But still not sure about the relation between SUB-GROUPS and the story.

13 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +3

inherent need for lower-status groups (for scapegoating)

Explanation:
This is how I read this in the context of the quoted paragraph.

Societies need sub-groups -- I think it means groups of lower status here, not just smaller groups -- in order to apportion blame/scapegoat, and this need is structural, ie inherent to the nature of (human?) societies.

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Note added at 48 mins (2017-06-07 12:21:43 GMT)
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I think it CAN also just mean sub-groups as such (smaller groups within larger groups) not necessarily lower-status ones, though the Adam/Eve example suggests this specific interpretation. Hard to say without access to more of the text.

Definitely not family units, though.

magdadh
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:52
Works in field
Native speaker of:

Polish
PRO pts in category: 4

Notes to answerer

Asker: Thanks! I will think over it.

12 hrs confidence:

peer agreement (net): +1

an underlying requisite for [the existence of] classes of a subordinated nature

Explanation:
I am giving you an "orthopaedic" translation (meaning, not necessarily in "good" or "natural" English), nonetheless, it may help you to get the idea. (Providing I got it right, without further context!)

sub-
1.2 Of a smaller size; of a subordinate nature.
‘subculture’
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sub-

Here is a good and simple explanation for the "Orange Catholic Bible"

http://www.shmoop.com/dune/orange-catholic-bible-symbol.html

In other words, I think he is talking about a basic need, to have a "group of people", call it "class", "sub-" "subordinated" to you, so you can "blame" on them.

The "old" saying that "sh*t rolls downhill" may be somewhat applicable here.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shit rolls do...

Good luck!

JohnMcDove
United States
Local time: 23:52
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

Spanish
PRO pts in category: 8

Notes to answerer

Asker: Thanks! I will think over the uphill/downhill group pattern. And I seem got the joking point mentioned by Finch in your second link.

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