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"the same"

English translation: the items just named

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
English term or phrase:"the same"
Selected answer:the items just named
Entered by: Deborah Workman

14:01 Dec 19, 2006
English language (monolingual) [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law: Contract(s)
English term or phrase: "the same"
"We also refer to the fact that the content of these instructions is not part of previous or existing agreements, promises or legal relationship or are intended to change the same."
Does this sentence sound a bit strange to you or not?
Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 02:51
the items just named
Explanation:
I agree with the others that "the same" is OK and that there are sloppy grammar errors.

"We also refer to the fact that the content of these instructions is neither part of [any] previous or existing agreement, promise or legal relationship nor is it intended to change the same."

In this case, "the same" = "any previous or existing agreement, promise or legal relationship".

Equating "the same" with "as above" is not incorrect exactly, but it's not precise since the list is not above but precedes in the same sentence.
Selected response from:

Deborah Workman
United States
Local time: 19:51
Grading comment
Thanks for your final input, Deborah!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



SUMMARY OF ALL EXPLANATIONS PROVIDED
4 +2as above
David Moore (X)
4 +1refering to the same as described above
Hamid Sadeghieh
4 +1the same, +/- OK, but.......
Lia Fail (X)
5the items just named
Deborah Workman
4comment (verb error)
Ken Cox


Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


23 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
refering to the same as described above


Explanation:
"the same", here, refers to "...existing agreements, promises or legal relationship ..."

Hamid Sadeghieh
Iran
Local time: 03:21
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in Persian (Farsi)Persian (Farsi)

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  airmailrpl: -
1 hr
  -> Thank you.
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38 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
the same
the same, +/- OK, but.......


Explanation:
I wouldn't have said there was a particular problem with "the same", in ternms of usage, but there is an ambiguity, in fact there are 2.

"We also refer to the fact that the content of these instructions is not part of previous or existing agreements, promises or legal relationship or are intended to change the same."

The "are" is plural, so what is it referring to, as content is singular? I would say it's a lapsus and the writes is treferring to the 'nstructions.

More correct:

A (plural)
"We also refer to the fact that <...> these instructions ARE not part of previous or existing agreements, promises or legal relationship NOR ARE THEY intended to change the same."

B (singular)
"We also refer to the fact that the content of these instructions is not part of previous or existing agreements, promises or legal relationship NOR IS IT intended to change the same."

The plural sounds better. And NOR is required not OR.

As for the second ambiguity:

"We also refer to the fact that the content of these instructions is not part of previous or existing agreements, promises or legal relationship or are intended to change the same."

Does teh 'same' refer to the instructions or to the agreements/promises/relationships? Logically it should be the latter, but even so, the use of 'same' does lead to possible ambiguity.



Lia Fail (X)
Spain
Local time: 01:51
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Ken Cox: hmmm, the writer probably did intend 'instructions' to be the subject of the second phrase, but as you say the sentence construction is incorrect.
5 mins
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41 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
comment (verb error)


Explanation:
The second verb (or are intended...) is incorrect: it should be singular to correspond to 'content', and with the given wording and punctuation 'are' should be deleted. Wording such as '..., nor is it intended to modify the same' would be clearer.

Ken Cox
Local time: 01:51
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 12
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46 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
the same
as above


Explanation:
But extremely careless in the grammar stakes, which is probably why it sounds odd to you...
It should read:
"...the content of these instructions is not part of previous or existing agreements, promises or legal relationship NOR IS IT intended to change the same (agreements, promises or legal relationship)." ALTERNATIVELY:
"...the CONTENTS of these instructions ARE not part of previous or existing agreements, promises or legal relationship, NOR ARE THEY intended to change the same (agreements etc.)."

David Moore (X)
Local time: 01:51
Works in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 26

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  airmailrpl: -
1 hr
agree  Mehmet Hascan
2 hrs
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10 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
the items just named


Explanation:
I agree with the others that "the same" is OK and that there are sloppy grammar errors.

"We also refer to the fact that the content of these instructions is neither part of [any] previous or existing agreement, promise or legal relationship nor is it intended to change the same."

In this case, "the same" = "any previous or existing agreement, promise or legal relationship".

Equating "the same" with "as above" is not incorrect exactly, but it's not precise since the list is not above but precedes in the same sentence.

Deborah Workman
United States
Local time: 19:51
Works in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 24
Grading comment
Thanks for your final input, Deborah!
Notes to answerer
Asker: To me "the same" sounds always like "Indian English". Many Indian people use "the same" instead of "it". But I'm no native. I would have written "these". In fact the sentence comes from the dokumentation of a machine from one of the biggest corporations in the world, and I find it a shame that such a player engages non-native writers for authoring their dokuments.

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