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with or without "witch"

English translation: Deperin, established/founded in 2005,

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
English term or phrase:with or without
Selected answer:Deperin, established/founded in 2005,
Entered by: tjmh (X)

03:55 May 17, 2006
English language (monolingual) [PRO]
Law: Contract(s)
English term or phrase: with or without "witch"
The CAAC is a new division in Deperin which was established in 2005. It functions to manage various cooperations with international institutions operating in industry development, as well as facilitate international institutions to be able to execute their development programs di Indonesia more effectively.

---------------

What is more acceptable in a contract:

The CAAC is a new division in Deperin which was established in 2005 .....


Or


The CAAC is a new division in Deperin established in 2005
tjmh (X)
Deperin, established/founded in 2005,
Explanation:
if you say "which was" the emphasis is on "Deperin" .. if you want to emphasize "CAAC" I would say "and was"
Selected response from:

David Hollywood
Local time: 10:05
Grading comment
Thanks all
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



SUMMARY OF ALL EXPLANATIONS PROVIDED
4 +5Deperin, established/founded in 2005,
David Hollywood
4 +1reword
Brie Vernier
4with, but transposed
David Moore (X)


Discussion entries: 2





  

Answers


6 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +5
with or without
Deperin, established/founded in 2005,


Explanation:
if you say "which was" the emphasis is on "Deperin" .. if you want to emphasize "CAAC" I would say "and was"

David Hollywood
Local time: 10:05
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 43
Grading comment
Thanks all

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Richard Benham: Comma would appear to be optional here.
3 mins
  -> agree with you Richard and thanks :)
agree  Michelle Welchons
20 mins
  -> thanks Michelle :)
agree  Edith Kelly
24 mins
  -> thanks Edith :)
agree  Gail Patricia Bulla - nee Charrion: I like the comma!
2 hrs
  -> thanks patriz1 :)
agree  Emilie: With the comma!
2 hrs
  -> thanks Emilie :)
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
with or without
with, but transposed


Explanation:
We get into shades of meaning here...
Reading between the lines, the writer conveys the impression that CAAC was established in 2005 as an additional division in Deperin, where other divisions were already established.

I rather suspect that the CAAC was established in Deperin, this being a new location, in which case my suggestion would be:

"The CAAC is a new division which was established in 2005 in Deperin."

So unless you know something about the company's recent history, either one of these answers could be wrong...

David Moore (X)
Local time: 15:05
Works in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 26

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Brie Vernier: Deperin appears to be the Dept. of Industry, so not a place as such. Also, English word order stipulates place-manner-time, so if Deperin *were* a place, "in 2005" would come last.//Yes, of course, but IMO that would be a rather unusual emphasis here.
1 hr
  -> If the "Deperin" is indeed that department, you are absolutely right. But as to the word order: that's not cut-and-dried, and if Deperin WERE a place, my posting could well be correct. Accentuating by unconventional word-order, you know...
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5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
with or without
reword


Explanation:
Using "that" instead of "which" could avoid the confusion about whether it was the Deperin or CAAC that was established in 2005. I presume it was CAAC, and that the Deperin has been around for awhile. Nevertheless, I would suggest rewording it as follows:

The CAAC was established in 2005 as a new division of Deperin.

Alternatively, depending on where your emphasis needs to be, this could also work:

- The CAAC, a new division of Deperin, was established in 2005.


Also, please note that you've missed out a "di" in the last sentence:

"... development programs in Indonesia more effectively."


Brie Vernier
Germany
Local time: 15:05
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 12
Notes to answerer
Asker: Oh yes I missed out "di". Thank you very much


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Nick Lingris
15 hrs
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