\"If you may\": same as \"if you please/will\"?

06:33 Oct 8, 2017 

Sorry, pal! I did miss out on "if" in transcribing the excerpt from the video. Still, I wonder where the airhead got that usage of "if you may".

13:34 Oct 7, 2017 

“If you would” - Thanks, I was waiting for this; definitely heard that before. My better half (American) is not home, so I can't ask, but I only said "vaguely" below because despite frequent visits to blogs about US politics, I've never heard it used; "Antifa," on the other hand is a topic they regularly talk about (cf video).

Thanks for the discussion!

Best wishes

13:22 Oct 7, 2017 

Thanks! Interestingly enough, I did find this here from South Africa:
"Transcript of President Jacob Zuma's replies to oral questions, parliament, 13 September 2016"

It says:
"The SPEAKER: Excuse me, hon President. If you may, please take your seat. Hon Malema, what is the point of order?"
http://www.politicsweb.co.za/documents/what-are-the-9-points...

This would mean the use of this expression is not restricted to the States. Similarly, I think, although a bit extended, from CAN:
"Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Graydon, limiting of time, I would have to request you, there are other members who want to ask questions, if you may be quick, and Mr. More can be quick in answer, because we are limiting time now."
https://www.gov.mb.ca/legislature/hansard/40th_3rd/ju_02/ju_...

13:22 Oct 7, 2017 

I strongly suspect that “if you may” is something used for the film to stylize the animated character in some way and perhaps as a non-native English speaker, old-fashioned, “colonial,” or otherwise “foreign.”

It does not sound at all natural to my American ears. “If you would” or “if you will” are used (the former in the sense of “if you don’t mind” and the latter in the sense if “if you will allow”) although both are rather formal and stuffy.

13:12 Oct 7, 2017 

My position is that in the video the asker cited it is possible to interpret "if you may" as meaning "if you may call it that". We don't have to assume that it is another way of saying "if you will" (which, as you rightly say, is "if you like" in British English).

However, it is impossible to interpret the example in Madagascar in that way, which is why I've been concentrating on it. In this example, which cannot be a slip of the tongue, "if you may" must mean "if you like", "if you would like to", "if it is agreeable to you", or whatever. That, to me, is very strange and unfamiliar, but it must be so.

So this seems to prove that "if you may" is an established American expression with this meaning. It follows that it might have that same meaning in other cases.

I have found a story online about a horse with which (whom?) all the "girls" (mares) wish to mate, called "Mate Me (If You May)". At least the picture suggests it's about horses; I don't feel inclined to read it (you have to register). From the synopsis, "if you may" seems to mean "if you want to" here.
https://www.inkitt.com/stories/romance/161346

12:57 Oct 7, 2017 

I thought Charles said it was used in the sense of "if you please"; I have not found any example directly citing "if you may" = "if you will" as an AmE expression.

Even in AmE, "if you will" is the standard expression:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/if you will
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/if you will

"if you like" is specifically BrE if I see that correctly:
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/if-you-li...

But there is no such entry anywhere for "may." However, if you look at M-W's definition, it says:
"if you will
:if you wish to call it that"

From there, you easily get to what I cited below: "if you may call it that" -> "if you may."

Examples of "if you may say so" instead of "call it that" seem to be from Indian (or more broadly, Asian) English:
"This strength in a social connection is encapsulated in a new factor, an ‘effective’ distance if you may say so."
https://factordaily.com/fake-news-viral-diseases-study/

"One downside, if you may say so, is that you need to"
https://techtwaddle.co.in/blog/2009/10/

Overall, I still think you were right. Not sure Charles would object to this?

Best

12:39 Oct 7, 2017 

Yes, that's precisely what I was syaing at the outset... it sounded to me simply like a change of direction mid-speech; but Charles and now Gallagy have confirmed for us that this is not the case here, but that it is just an accepted US expression.

12:28 Oct 7, 2017 

@Charles
Yes, I vaguely remember having heard this expression before (most likely said by Americans, though), but I can't seem to find something else about the Madagascar example.

@Tony
"gesticulating and couldn't speak because their mouth was full of cake"

I see it this way: It's some kind of (radio) interview, so I think they could just be trying to keep it as short as possible; it's not unusual to have people saying incomplete sentences, etc. when they're being interviewed, possibly because they're contemplating about several things at once and it just doesn't come out right. Has this never happened to you? It has to me, but it's harder to rectify in EN than it is in DE, by the way.

Typically, ENS (especially in the States, I think) will try to make sentences as short as possible. In German, people will attempt to torture the poor interpreter at a conference by having five consecutive relative clauses follow the subject of the subordinate clause before putting a verb at the end.

Best wishes and a great weekend to all of you

12:13 Oct 7, 2017 

Maybe "if you may" in the Madagascar sense means "if you are free to decide whether to do so or not", "if there is nothing forbidding you to do so", and somehow you get from there to "if you have no objection".

12:00 Oct 7, 2017 

Ah yes, but what you cite is not the same expression!
"If you may [do something]" is a perfectly valid, normal expression, and comes down to my second definition: "If one may be allowed to call it that..."

What is different in ASKER's context is that there is nothing following it, when used in the second person, which is unusual, at least in EN-GB, and immediately begs comparison with 'if you will' — which, again, is a perfectly usual expression.
I think it's the use of it with the second person after 'if' that makes it sound so odd! "I'd love another cup of tea, please, if I may...?" is perfectly normal and OK. "You'd like another cup of tea, if you may...?" however woud be odd — unless someone was gesticulating and couldn't speak because their mouth was full of cake!

Ah, it's not THAT odd! Although the comment you cite is from someone LIVING in London, we have no ifnroamtion as to his actual educational background; but it is obvious that he has a great deal of exposure to EN-US, which could certainly explain the fact he is familiar with the expression; note he makes no comment as to whether this is either GB or US usage, or both.

11:57 Oct 7, 2017 

Perhaps I need to get out more. I can only say that it's a very surprising usage to my ear. But I don't live in the UK and haven't for 20 years.
You could be right about "if you may call it that" in the asker's example, but that doesn't work for the Madagascar example, which really does seem to suggest that something is happening here (but you don't know what it is, do you, Mr Jones?, as a recent Nobel laureate once put it). Scripts for major films like this are very closely scrutinised by many people and this would not have been included if the expression were not current in this sense and familiar to a mass audience.

11:46 Oct 7, 2017 

From someone living in Illinois:
"That is the only 'question' if you may call it that."
https://www.glassdoor.de/Vorstellungsgespräch/CoWorx-Staffin...

I think the two examples I gave are distinctly different from the Madagascar one. There, it's about "if you don't mind"; here, it's more about "if that is the right word to use." That's how I interpreted what he said (by the way, the recording was cut right before he starts speaking, so we don't know whether there's something missing).

He talks about ideology and movement, and follows up by saying "stance," which doesn't really fit in there. He's basically grasping for the right word.

11:42 Oct 7, 2017 

That's odd, considering that the explanation here (in the sense of "if you don't mind") is from someone living in London:
https://www.italki.com/question/369532?hl=de

I've listened to the video and in my opinion, he's just shortening "If you may call it that":
"A genderless world is a far fetched dream, a Utopia, if you may call it that."
https://medium.com/my-ally/breaking-gender-bias-in-artificia...

OT: This is sure to be an interesting read regarding "could(n't) care less":
https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2012/12/more-about-caring...

The phrase is actually older than they claim. See here for when Merriam-Webster weighed in on the issue:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/video/could-care-less-or-cou...

First time I heard it, I immediately picked up on the sarcasm, but possibly with a slightly different interpretation in mind--"I could care less" by ignoring the question, but see, I'm wasting my breath responding (to show some respect, i.e., I care about something), but that's about all I'll say to that. I know that doesn't bear out reading the other explanations, but I thought it may be an interesting take on it nonetheless.

Best

11:00 Oct 7, 2017 

Well, to my mind it seems to be nonsense, since none of the normal meanings of "may" is applicable here. But if people say it, people say it, and if they carry on saying it, however much others disapprove, in due course it becomes, de facto, part of the language.

There's probably some logic behind it, although I can't see what it might be. It is not always safe to assume that people who say things like this are stupid or illiterate. I remember the first time I encountered "I could care less" meaning "I couldn't care less", and like many people I thought it was nonsense, but I failed to appreciate that it's ironic: it means "as if I could care less!".

Perhaps there's a discussion of this on one of the many Internet blogs and forums on English usage.

10:41 Oct 7, 2017 

I have never heard "if you may" used to mean "if you will" (or "if you don't mind"), but the video cited here, where it definitely does occur, is not the only example. It also occurs in the animated film Madagascar:

"Please hop on top of my sterilized examination table, if you may."
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/c49e88d6-9d8d-47d6-a9db-d6e022b...

So apparently it's not a mistake, but a variant in American English. How widespread it is I don't know; you would need an American speaker to tell you.

09:16 Oct 7, 2017 

OK, once you hear the dialogue, it is now clear: you have incorrectly transcribed the words, whcih is why your question appears not to make sense: you have left out the 'if', which justifies the parenthesis.
But you also said "I've been noticing" — do you really mean you have been noticing this on a regular basis? Or simply that you have encountered it on this one occasion?

08:58 Oct 7, 2017 

Well, Tony, hopefully hearing it from an American speaker will make my question a tad bit less far from clear. There, cue it at 5:00 then play, please. Cheers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmNz2jGzsDA