learners to learners committee

11:09 Oct 9, 2014 

"Hmm … ich finde jetzt nicht, dass das eine sooo große Bandbreite ist, dass noch tausend, oder sagen wir auch nur hundert andere Möglichkeiten dazwischenpassen."

That's only what they say: "there are many possibilities"

Actually, there aren't so many options to "include learners in the management, organisation and teaching" of these insitutions. So, you are correct in your analysis. The number of options is simply being exaggerated (as almost always when you want to make a case for something). I mean, if you can include learners everywhere, who needs teachers then? They could just offer DIY courses.

"Hier hätten wir also eine Bandbreite, die bei einem *Vorgang* anfängt (ein 'mass noun' mit deutlichem verbalen Sinn) und bei einem bzw. zwei *sozialen Konstrukten* endet."

Yes, you are correct - that's what the links below call disparate items ("false range"). And that's why I only said "you could argue", without trying to make a strong case for it.

The text would need to be reworded. In fact, it sounds stylistically awful somewhere else too: "include learners in the ... organisation ... of adult education organisations", as well as "possibilites to include" (ways).

10:47 Oct 9, 2014 

"Also, du warst ja auch mal der Interpretation gefolgt, dass es hier drei Aufzählungspunkte gibt, richtig?"

Yes, Sir!

"Dann hätte unser Text zwar der Regel gemäß ein 'and' und ein 'to' eingebaut, nur leider an den vollkommen falschen Stellen. Weil das 'to' ja nicht am Ende steht, sondern das 'and'."

Not quite. As explained below:

A) If "learners" refers to both "committee" and "advisory board", the "and" must be there.

B) As you can see from my other examples as well, the "to" is not (!) always at the end - what is at the end are the one, two, three, four, five items which represent the end of the range. Take the milk/butter/cheese example:
As people pointed out in their agreements, it should better read "from milk to butter and cheese" -> milk to butter (one processed product) and cheese (second processed product). Both ends of the range are independent of each other; cheese doesn't naturally follow butter.

"Also muss der Leser eben etwas Konstruktionsarbeit leisten"

If the reader spots the "from", he should know what to do with the "to" later. I rather say the "starting" shouldn't be in here - never said I really like this text to begin with :)

10:39 Oct 9, 2014 

First off, nobody has to be embarassed here. I, myself, was asking Helen something about "Wulstprofil" because it actually took me a while to understand how "-profil" was used in this context. I think that's OK. I'm participating, so we can learn from each other, and I am actually glad that you brought it up in the first place, so I could go back and check all the links pertaining to the topic.

Some people here insist they're always right or even get personally offended when there is cause for re-thinking an issue, but that's another story. There are also enough people with whom you can have a very interesting and thoughtful discussion on here.

10:19 Oct 9, 2014 

1) Don't use from/to for anything besides actual ranges.
Und deine Interpretation geht ja davon aus, dass der Text hier "from…to" verwendet, ja? Hier hätten wir also eine Bandbreite, die bei einem *Vorgang* anfängt (ein "mass noun" mit deutlichem verbalen Sinn) und bei einem bzw. zwei *sozialen Konstrukten* endet. Sogar der Typ von der NYTimes (dein Link), der seine Position als gemäßigt beschreibt, hat dann doch echte Schwierigkeiten mit Mengen, die z.B. "Ananas" und "Dostojewski" enthalten. Ist für mich hier das gleiche, semantisch gesehen: "Angefangen bei der Befragung von Lernenden [=semantisch: Ananas] bis hin zu Arbeitsgruppen und beratenden Organen [semantisch: Dostojewski]".

10:18 Oct 9, 2014 

Aber das ist ja nicht die Interpretation, bei der du als letztes warst. "you could argue it's ranging from "lower-level" consultations to "higher-level" committees and boards". Also muss der Leser eben etwas Konstruktionsarbeit leisten und die letzten beiden als einen Punkt verstehen. Das bringt uns zu:

2) Use only start and end for a range.
Dann wäre also "consultation of learners" das MINIMUM der Einbindung von Lernenden und "learners committees and advisory boards" das MAXIMUM der Einbindung von Lernenden. Dazwischen lägen dann immer noch "*many* possibilities". Hmm … ich finde jetzt nicht, dass das eine sooo große Bandbreite ist, dass noch tausend, oder sagen wir auch nur hundert andere Möglichkeiten dazwischenpassen. Der Text will ja offensichtlich den Leser beeindrucken an dieser Stelle. Funktioniert bei mir nicht, aber vielleicht habe ich auch nur zu wenig Fantasie.

10:17 Oct 9, 2014 

Du hast sehr schöne Daumenregeln aufgestellt, die können wir ja mal an den Text hier anlegen. Ziel ist, dass es am Ende keinem peinlich sein muss, von diesem Text an dem einen oder anderen Punkt verwirrt gewesen zu sein. [An alle, die Besseres zu tun haben: Häkchen bei "Follow Discussion" entfernen]. In aufsteigender Reihenfolge:

3) If more than two items, add others by using "and".

Also, du warst ja auch mal der Interpretation gefolgt, dass es hier drei Aufzählungspunkte gibt, richtig? "The three list items are consultation of learners / learners committee / advisory boards. " Dann hätte unser Text zwar der Regel gemäß ein "and" und ein "to" eingebaut, nur leider an den vollkommen falschen Stellen. Weil das "to" ja nicht am Ende steht, sondern das "and".

08:17 Oct 9, 2014 

There is only 1 answer by 1 (!) native speaker who thinks from/to/to is OK:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_english/business_commerc...

His explanation seems quite odd, however: "For instance, in one example, 'von Milch ueber Butter bis hin zu Kaese' should be "from milk to butter to cheese" - the three nouns are exactly parallel."

A) From milk to butter to cheese seems to imply - when following the logical sequence of a range - that butter is made from milk (OK) and cheese is made from butter (not OK!).

B) The nouns are not exactly parallel. Butter and cheese are processed milk products.

The person in question apparently fell into the trap of trying to use from...to for a "false range" as explained below and made it even worse by using "to" twice (blatantly showing that it's a false range).

His answer may have fared better were it not for the fact that except for the size (from small to large), all the projects listed are disparate items (of different types).

Rule of thumb could be:

1) Don't use from/to for anything besides actual ranges.
2) Use only start and end for a range.
3) If more than two items, add others by using "and".

08:04 Oct 9, 2014 

Still, I'd like to refer you and Andreas to the other discussions on the topic:

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_english/marketing_market...

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_english/certificates_dip...

Cilian even uses "through" here, although I still think that is not a good option in AmE:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_english/other/179775-von...

Most people seem to think this is a German sentence structure you can't just use in English.

04:40 Oct 9, 2014 

sorry für die Abwesenheit von der hitzigen Diskussion. Ich habe mich zwischenzeitig schon mal für den Nutzerbeirat entschieden. Text musste weg. Es hängt wohl alles an dem Wörtchen to ;)

23:47 Oct 8, 2014 

Maybe I can explain it better when I use "über" in a different context.

When you go by train or drive somewhere, the "über" is "via" because you go from A to C via B. You may say from A to B to C, but since B is not your destination, there is no reason why you should say "to".

Same here. The range is from consulting individual learners to advisory boards.

The "and" was most likely included because you can write the term as "learners advisory board":
http://www.aha-learners.org/advisory-board.html

So, instead of writing "learners committee" and "learners advisory board", they wrote "learners committee and advisory board".

I said "you omit 'über'" because either you change the structure of the sentence or you be satisifed with beginning (from) and end (to). Doubling "to" seems odd to me because then you'd go from one extreme (first "to") on to another extreme (second "to").

Ranging from A to C - fine
Ranging from A to B to C - ?!?
Ranging from A to B and from B to C - fine

Another example:
"subjects ranging from the Civil War to slavery and the British Empire"
https://www1.columbia.edu/sec/dlc/dkv/cero/help/about.html

There are examples of to...to - just looks odd, IMO.

22:51 Oct 8, 2014 

"While the ceramics category includes artifacts ranging from clay pipes, beads, and figurines to the remains of fire hearths and house walls, pottery is the most common type of ceramic."
http://mdah.state.ms.us/hpres/Notes on Pottery and Stone Too...

"The center provides comprehensive medical care ranging from emergency care and surgical services to critical care, pediatrics, obstetrics, mental health services, and much more."
http://www.dovajobs.us/job-details/7786467/augusta/er-nurse-...

"ranging from stock market probability and interest rate percentages to political polls and sport"
http://catalog.scccld.lib.mo.us/(0ar555bpru5ykj5511ii2muz)/N...

"We will survey a selection of studies exploring topics that range from the development of second language (Spanish) grammars, to second language production and comprehension, input processing, and the acquisition of pragmatic and sociolinguistic competence."
http://liberalarts.iupui.edu/wlac/spanish_mat/course_descrip...

22:51 Oct 8, 2014 

One link also included the following (even if the author doesn't like it):
"from tens of billions of dollars in claims to possible criminal charges and new regulations on offshore drilling"

Ranges better read like this:
"ranging from farms to zoos and fire stations to art museums."
http://www.somerville.k12.ma.us/education/dept/dept.php?sect...

"Before I began teaching I had worked in a variety of fields ranging from retail to electrical and several points between."
http://www.portage.k12.in.us/Page/5217

"ranging from the design and installation of new systems to custom remodels and 'green' upgrades."
http://luminaireinc.us/residential-electrical/#

"issues ranging from airport revenue diversion to privatization and from regulatory reform to the implementation of environmental policies."
http://www.airportlaw.us/stephen_h_kaplan.php

22:38 Oct 8, 2014 

"Usually, you don't use "von...über...zu" in English, i.e., you omit "über""

Hier noch mal zwei Beispiele aus den Links, die du geschickt hattest. Diese Beispiele sind von der Struktur her wie meine:

ranging from bullies *to* drugs *to* divorce
everything from Truman Capote’s Black and White Ball in 1966 *to* a joint bar and bat mitzvah reception for Ivan Boesky’s children on the Queen Elizabeth 2 *to* the wedding of Arnold Schwarzenegger and Maria Shriver

Zwischen den einzelnen Aufzählungsgliedern steht immer "to". Wo ist da ein "über" ausgelassen?

22:35 Oct 8, 2014 

...you could argue it's ranging from "lower-level" consultations to "higher-level" committees and boards.

As M-W says as well:
"the distance or extent between possible extremes <an actor who can go through the full range of emotion, from joy to sorrow, in mere minutes>"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/range[noun]

Some people apparently say they use "through" here: "from...through...to".

At least in AmE, I don't think that's a great option because "through" as in "1 through 5" can also mean "1 to 5" and you're stuck with the same problem (from beginning to end).

22:23 Oct 8, 2014 

"The problem is that most of these items don’t fall along a real continuum, a Point-A-to-Point-B line, hence the appellation 'false' for the range.

This movie has everything from fistfights to car chases to shootouts.
Really? Everything? Talking animals? Tender romance? Discussions about the nature of existence? Aliens?

The upscale women’s boutique has merchandise ranging from handbags to jewelry.
Just what all is in between handbags and jewelry? Clothes? Nope. Shoes? A few. Sunglasses? Bingo! Fancy pens? Yep — who knew?"
http://blogs.kansas.com/grammar/2010/05/20/home-home-on-the-...

Thus, the first problem is:
Can we speak of a range here or is it a "false range"?

The second:
Is there even the possibility of using three values when you want to define a range - because you don't usually define a range by using more than two values. It's a start and an end. The "in between" is the range.

22:20 Oct 8, 2014 

"My colleague Vanessa Gordon and others have noted our frequent use of what critics call 'false ranges.' These constructions generally are framed with phrases like 'everything from … to …' or 'ranging from … to …' and include two or more disparate items: 'The legislation includes everything from stricter bank regulations to new taxes on overseas corporations.'"
http://afterdeadline.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/24/everything...

"The construction the writers could have used more precisely is that these authors, diseases, performers, topics, whatever are as diverse as. [...] Prices can have ranges; heights and weights can have ranges: specific points along a line with an identifiable beginning and end."
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/mcintyre/blog/2006/01/i...

22:18 Oct 8, 2014 

Ich bräuchte dann Gegenbeispiele. Bitte gib mir ein paar.

22:16 Oct 8, 2014 

I'd say forget the "starting" and concentrate on "from...to". Maybe that throws you off. "from...to" usually expresses a range, with from = start and to = end. It's best to only have two values here, not three.

Actually, the first example you quote was originally written "dry, bitter cold of the Arctic" (i.e., dry and bitter, not "to"), which makes much more sense in order to compare the two: dry and bitter cold <> steamy heat of the tropics.

Your second example's first sentence is "'Lonely you feel lonelier the world makes you feel' this is 100% true." - Is that English to you :)? (someone just told me that sentence made his brain smoke...)

The third and fourth link are examples from Asian non-ENS countries, as far as I can see. Linguistically, I am not quite happy with the Guardian news item either (it's a quote from someone else, not the Guardian's writing).

21:02 Oct 8, 2014 

Also, diese Art, "starting from" zu verwenden, ist für mich gar nicht "quite common" und "usual". Du müsstest mir vielleicht einfach Beispiele geben, damit ich es verstehe.

Hier sind Beispiele, die ich für "starting from" gefunden habe, bei denen mehr als zwei aufgezählte Punkte folgen:

"every kind of climate starting from dry to bitter cold of the Arctic to the steamy heat of the tropics"
"Be it anything. Starting from painting to yoga to teaching to counseling"
"in various seasons starting from winter to summer to monsoon throughout the year."
"variety of styles starting from anything to tank tops to classic merino jumpers"
"a lot of information technology skills, starting from the plantations to the packaging to the recording of the transaction when you pay"

20:45 Oct 8, 2014 

Yes, that's quite common and actually needed here. Why? So that "consultation of" doesn't refer to the second item.

A) regular consultation of learners

to

B) learners committees
C) advisory boards

If you wrote "starting from the regular consultation of learners and learners committees", one might think you regularly consult learners committees instead of being part of them!

20:42 Oct 8, 2014 

"Usually, you don't use "von...über...zu" in English, i.e., you omit "über"."

Der Text hier hat das "to" zwischen 1. und 2. Glied der Aufzählung (also, wo du in der deutschen Übersetzung das "über" hast).

20:35 Oct 8, 2014 

Actually, my mind must be wandering off. Regina has had the correct parsing, but "learners committee" is not correct, IMO. Somehow this "bei" got stuck in my head.

"Die Regeln jedenfalls, die du bei deiner grammatischen Analyse aufgestellt hast, passen nicht ganz zum Text."

Would you care to explain? Don't tell me you say that because of the missing definite article ("the regular consultation of") :)

20:31 Oct 8, 2014 

Das ist ein großartiger Gedanke, der es so viel einfacher macht – denn *learners comittees* findet man noch ziemlich oft.

Nur dass du den Text dabei selber von aller Schuld an seinen Fehlinterpretationen freisprichst – das geht nicht ganz auf. Die Regeln jedenfalls, die du bei deiner grammatischen Analyse aufgestellt hast, passen nicht ganz zum Text.

19:31 Oct 8, 2014 

...the answer is something along the lines of:

"Von der Rücksprache mit den Lernenden über das Mitwirken in Arbeitsgemeinschaften bis hin zum Beitritt im Landesbeirat für Erwachsenenbildung gibt es viele Möglichkeiten, die Lernen in die... mit einzubeziehen."

PS: How do you want to combine "consultation of" + "learners committee" + "include learners"? That doesn't make any sense to me. It would mean learners can only indirectly influence something - then, the entire text is for nought.

19:29 Oct 8, 2014 

Sorry, but somehow this seems to have been parsed wrong.

The expression is "starting from...to".

The three list items are consultation of learners / learners committee / advisory boards.

Usually, you don't use "von...über...zu" in English, i.e., you omit "über".

That's why it says "there are many possibilities to include"!

In addition:
"Zur örtlichen und regionalen Koordination und Kooperation der Erwachsenenbildung sollen die Träger der Einrichtungen der Erwachsenenbildung auf der Ebene des Landkreises oder der kreisfreien Gemeinden, erforderlichenfalls auch des Bezirks, Arbeitsgemeinschaften bilden und insbesondere gemeinsame Veranstaltungsverzeichnisse erstellen.

(2) 1 Eine Kooperation auf Landesebene erfolgt im Rahmen des Landesbeirats für Erwachsenenbildung. 2 Möglichkeiten der Aufgabenteilung und der Schwerpunktbildung sollen hierbei in gegenseitigem Einvernehmen wahrgenommen werden."
http://www.gesetze-bayern.de/jportal/portal/page/bsbayprod.p...

11:46 Oct 7, 2014 

Gerade habe ich doch noch ein Äquivalent gefunden, "Nutzerbeirat", ebenfalls aufgeführt unter dem Link in meiner Antwort. Weil es noch eher selten verbreitet ist, würde ich "consultation of learners to learners committees" übersetzen mit "Angefangen bei der *Einrichtung und Konsultation* eines Nutzerbeirats …"