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Dutch to English translations [Non-PRO] Religion / Christian practices (protestant)
Dutch term or phrase:Bediener van de doop
"Bediener van de doop De doop kan in principe door elk wedergeboren kind van God worden uitgevoerd. Jezus doopte niet zelf en ook de apostel Paulus heeft bijna niemand gedoopt. Zij lieten dat door hun discipelen doen (Johannes 4:2; Handelingen 10:48). Het gaat bij de doop namelijk om jouw geloof. Wie de doop uitvoert, is van ondergeschikt belang."
I'm having a lot of "fun" wrestling with this term. It has been translated ad "Administrator of the baptism", but that doesn't sound right to me given the register here. Anyone have an elegant solution for this? RSVP. TIA. Cheers, R.
Explanation: I don't think there is a single right answer here. While not everyday words, the person performing the baptism is a 'baptizer' and the person being baptized is the 'baptizand'. In a discussion of baptism rituals, I think these are perfectly acceptable.
Many thanks for all constructive participation in this discussion, but Chris's solution is the most precise for the context, which has also lead to the source text being simplified to 'Doper'. 4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer
"pentecostal" is classed among "evangelical" "evangelical" covers a wide range of denominations, but the Bible is their central focus rather than fixed traditions, doctrines and rituals.
what I was trying to point out is that the English equivalent of "bedienaar van de doop" certainly is "minister of baptism" "bedienaar van de doop" is a characteristic expression rooted in church tradition
and as your text was dealing with a canonical issue: who is entitled to administer baptism and as the issue of baptism has a long and eventful canonical history and as your text has a canonical undertone, I am convinced that in this canonical context "minister of baptism" is the right translation
No idea why, Barend, but the issue has resulted in the source text and the translation being changed to 'Baptizer'. FWIW, the pastor comes from a Pentecostal (charismatic) background.
It should not be "bediener" but "bedienaar", "bedienaar" is the right word. bedienaar van sacramenten, bedienaar van Gods Woord en dergelijke
May I suggest that you ask the pastor you work for why he used this expression "bedienaar van de doop"? The text above sounds evangelical to me. Evangelical Christians usually are well versed in the Bible and they set great store by what the Word of God really says. Besides, they tend to use a characteristic evangelical vocabulary and are familiar with ecclesiastical jargon. In fact "bedienaar van de doop" is church-speak. Why did he use this expression from the church tradition, what was he thinking of when using it?
I see what you mean, Chris. Non-Christians may think of a "minister" (church official) when they come across "Minister of baptism" but I don't think Christians will make this mistake. I think for them it will have a more general meaning.
Apart from that, if our text here starts with the expression "bedienaar van de doop", it certainly refers to the formal expression "minister of baptism" -- who is entitled to act as "the minister of baptism"
"In the Catholic Church the term minister enjoys a variety of usages. It most commonly refers to the person, whether lay or ordained, who is commissioned to perform some act on behalf of the Church. It is not a particular office or rank of clergy, as is the case in some other churches, but minister may be used as a collective term for vocational or professional pastoral leaders including clergy (bishops, deacons, priests) and non-clergy (theologians and lay ecclesial ministers). It is also used in reference to the canonical and liturgical administration of sacraments, as part of some offices, and with reference to the exercercise of the lay apostolate.
Minister is not used as a form of address (e.g., Minister Jones) in the Catholic Church."
Hi Barend, I understand the other meaning of minister and ministry you refer to. I think using minister in the context of a church is risky, because the more obvious meaning to the reader is 'church official', yet this would be in conflict with the point of the passage that follows. I'm not deliberately or obtusely interpreting the term too narrowly, but merely being circumspect.
Chris, this is what the catholic ! site that I referred to says
Part II, Article 11. The Minister of Baptism
Particularly praiseworthy is the faith with which many Christians, in painful circumstances of persecution, or in missionary territories or in special cases of necessity, have afforded and continue to afford the Sacrament of Baptism to new generations of Christians in the absence of ordained ministers.
Apart from cases of necessity, canonical norms permit the non ordained faithful to be designated as extraordinary ministers of Baptism [109] should there be no ordinary minister or in cases where he is impeded. [110] Care should be taken however to avoid too extensive an interpretation of this provision and such a faculty should not be conceded in an habitual form.
You should understand "minister" here in relation to "ministry", which covers a wide range of Christian religious activities You interpret "minister" too narrowly. Apart from that,
I beg to differ with you Barend. To my mind, a minister is a church official, while some brands of Christianity believe that anyone (= someone meaningful in the life of the baptizand) can perform a baptism, such as a parent or a friend. See wikipedia article: "Many Protestant churches see no specific prohibition in the biblical examples and permit any believer to baptize another." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Who_may_administer_a_ba...
Explanation: I don't think there is a single right answer here. While not everyday words, the person performing the baptism is a 'baptizer' and the person being baptized is the 'baptizand'. In a discussion of baptism rituals, I think these are perfectly acceptable.
Chris Hopley Netherlands Local time: 02:42 Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
Many thanks for all constructive participation in this discussion, but Chris's solution is the most precise for the context, which has also lead to the source text being simplified to 'Doper'.
Explanation: Officiant seems to me the best term for "bediender" since we're dealing with religion (as opposed to initiations in greek or fraternal orders or - as is literally called in belgium - "student clubs").
It's up to you whether you'd like to be more specific in stating "Baptism Officiant" or "Baptismal Officiant", but to me, "officiant" should suffice on its own by definition. In any case, I would avoid the typical prepostional rendering using "of the", as would be the case in more literally translated material.
Officiants do not have to be ordained or of a specific denomination, faith, etc. and they can be neutral.
Wiki confirms this.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 5 hrs (2010-02-24 20:04:43 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
typos are my nemesis. should be bediener, not bediender
Bryan Crumpler United States Local time: 21:42 Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 4
Notes to answerer
Asker: Point taken, Bryan. The only thing that concerns me is the register of your solution. The Dutch pastor I am working with on this project indicated that the baptism is not and official ceremony as it tends to be in North America.
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