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525 (Pronunciation / BrE)

English translation: either

16:41 Sep 29, 2004
English language (monolingual) [PRO]
Linguistics
English term or phrase: 525 (Pronunciation / BrE)
five hundred and twenty-five:

[five hundred _and_ twenty-five]
OR
[five hundred _an_ twenty-five]?

Is there any reduction in the word AND in this case?
Which version is more typical/better(?) to teach beginners in English? (I'm not a native English speaker and I'm not sure in my version :)

Thanks in advance
Igor Kreknin
Local time: 09:36
Selected answer:either
Explanation:
I'm not a phonetics expert (but have done some at university), but the typical pronunciation falls somewhere between the two you're suggesting, probably closer to the latter. It sounds a bit forced to say "five hundread anD twenty five" with a clear "D" sound, but even if a speaker is trying to pronounce it especially clearly, the quality of the D would be changed so that it's no longer a real plosive, but blends into the following "t", (and in fact the previous "n" blends into the whole combination "ndt", but I don't know how to describe that in phonetic terms).

Just some

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 mins (2004-09-29 16:53:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

My answer would have been different if \"and\" had been followed by a vowel. In that case, I might agree with Jonathan that it might indicate sloppy, or accented speech to leave out a clear \"d\" sound, though I think there\'s a danger here that we imagine things are pronounced (even by \"careful\" speakers) more closely in line with the written form than they actually are.
Selected response from:

Dr Andrew Read
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:36
Grading comment
Unfortunately I can’t divide the points. But the most useful aspect _for me_ was in Andrew Read’s answer: ...though I think there's a danger here that we imagine things are pronounced (even by "careful" speakers) more closely in line with the written form than they actually are.

Thanks, John Bowden. Your answer received more agrees, but I can't divide the points, I can only say Thanks awfully! :(

Thanks, Dusty. Your comments are always useful in the extreme.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



SUMMARY OF ALL EXPLANATIONS PROVIDED
5 +5five hundred *n* twenty five
John Bowden
4 +2either
Dr Andrew Read
4Either, depends..
Maya Kruger
3 -1the first variant
Jonathan MacKerron


Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


1 min   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): -1
525 (pronunciation / bre)
the first variant


Explanation:
the d is usually pronounced, unless voiced by very sloppy speakers

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 mins (2004-09-29 16:44:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

although in normal speach the \"and\" is left out altogether, is this a special context?

Jonathan MacKerron
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Enza Longo
2 mins
disagree  Dr Andrew Read: Also, in GB English the "and" is usually included, as the asker's question indicated.
4 mins
neutral  Cilian O'Tuama: maybe left out in AmE speech, but not in BE (or whatever we speak in Ireland)
11 mins
agree  swisstell
22 mins
disagree  John Bowden: "and" is never left out in BE, uless imitating the AE model (in teh same way as "schedule" is now frequently pronounced by BE speakers with "k" sound as in AE instead of the BE "shedule" pronunciation
27 mins
disagree  Tony M: Can't agree, in 'normal' speech [BE] the 'and' is NOT left out altogether; the degree of articulation of 'and' depends on the care with which the speaker is speaking, but it usually has a fairly low value....
6 hrs
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5 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
525 (pronunciation / bre)
either


Explanation:
I'm not a phonetics expert (but have done some at university), but the typical pronunciation falls somewhere between the two you're suggesting, probably closer to the latter. It sounds a bit forced to say "five hundread anD twenty five" with a clear "D" sound, but even if a speaker is trying to pronounce it especially clearly, the quality of the D would be changed so that it's no longer a real plosive, but blends into the following "t", (and in fact the previous "n" blends into the whole combination "ndt", but I don't know how to describe that in phonetic terms).

Just some

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 mins (2004-09-29 16:53:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

My answer would have been different if \"and\" had been followed by a vowel. In that case, I might agree with Jonathan that it might indicate sloppy, or accented speech to leave out a clear \"d\" sound, though I think there\'s a danger here that we imagine things are pronounced (even by \"careful\" speakers) more closely in line with the written form than they actually are.

Dr Andrew Read
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:36
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
Unfortunately I can’t divide the points. But the most useful aspect _for me_ was in Andrew Read’s answer: ...though I think there's a danger here that we imagine things are pronounced (even by "careful" speakers) more closely in line with the written form than they actually are.

Thanks, John Bowden. Your answer received more agrees, but I can't divide the points, I can only say Thanks awfully! :(

Thanks, Dusty. Your comments are always useful in the extreme.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  John Bowden: You're right about the "ndt" blend, but the first variant wou,ld only be heard if the speaker was really trying to speak clearly and distinctly
22 mins
agree  cmwilliams (X): yes, it's the weak vowel sound known as the 'schwa' - phonetic symbol looks a bit like an upside down 'e' . In normal speech, the 'd' sound would not be heard.
38 mins
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26 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +5
five hundred *n* twenty five


Explanation:
is the nearest i can transcribe it -the "a" in "and" would be unlikely to be very audible in normal, elided speech. C.f. "rock *n* roll", "fish *n* chips", which you often see spelled like this to reflect the pronunciation in BE.
HTH

John Bowden
Local time: 07:36
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 12

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Gillian Scheibelein: Marks *n* Spencers!
5 mins
  -> That's another one!
agree  Cilian O'Tuama: almost like 'in'
7 mins
agree  cmwilliams (X): it's the weak vowel - phonetically looks like an upside down 'e'.
20 mins
  -> Yes, it's a schwa (the weak vowel you refer to), but with an audible *n* at the end
agree  Tony M: In everyday speech, rather than careful enunciation, the 'and' is almsot negligible, 'n' is a good way of expressing it...
5 hrs
agree  Asghar Bhatti
6 hrs
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38 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
525 (pronunciation / bre)
Either, depends..


Explanation:
If you are teaching EFL students for the purpose of learning international English, then either, if teaching ESL students then point out reduction.
This is what we were taught in teacher training at Trinity College in London.

Maya Kruger
Local time: 23:36
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in CroatianCroatian, Native in EnglishEnglish
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