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English translation: [...] will apply only at the time of and for the purpose of entering into the initial contract
08:58 Jun 18, 2020
French to English translations [PRO] COVID-19 - Law/Patents - Law: Contract(s)
French term or phrase:qu’en vue et lors
les conditions ... ne s’appliquent qu’en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial
Okay so my initial translation is the conditions apply only on conclusion (signature) of the initial (or first) contract. But that leaves out 'en vue'.
Is this something like prior to and on conclusion of the contract? Thanks for your help
this a part of a bog standard / boilerplate clause found in the wording of thousands of contracts published in the searchable Web (and probably even more in the non-searchable Web and outside the Web!):
[certaines conditions] ne s'appliquent qu'en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial, pour les contrats renouvelables par tacite reconduction.
One sample, THIS being the original text:
Page 10:
9/ Faculté de renonciation .... Il est précisé que les règles applicables en matière de vente à distance ne s’appliquent : - qu’au premier contrat, pour les contrats à durée déterminée suivis d'opérations successives ou d'une série d'opérations distinctes, de même nature, échelonnées dans le temps ; - qu'en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial pour les contrats renouvelables par tacite reconduction.
so the part [... les règles applicables en matière de vente à distance ne s’appliquent] ... - qu'en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial pour les contrats renouvelables par tacite reconduction.
would be:
- [distance selling rules will apply only] at the time of and for the purpose ofentering into the initial contract, for contracts renewable by tacit reconduction.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 19 hrs (2020-06-19 04:13:56 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
qu'en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial
and most of them go to add
qu'en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial pour les contrats renouvelables par tacite reconduction.
Also, if you think of it, anything that would apply "lors de la conclusion du contrat" can not be IN the contract itself (as a contract can not apply before it's even agreed) so these "conditions" must be "outside of the contract", like in some rules (laws) applicable to the contract.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 day 3 hrs (2020-06-19 12:09:39 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
"en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial"
can be expanded in two separate clauses:
- en vue de la conclusion du contrat initial => for the purpose of (entering into the initial contract) + - lors de la conclusion du contrat initial => at the time of (entering into the initial contract)
You could stick to the same order in EN i.e. "... for the purpose of and at the time of ..."
It seemed to me that this order sounds more logical: "... at the time of and for the purpose of ...", but using one or the other makes no difference regarding the meaning.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 day 3 hrs (2020-06-19 12:55:51 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
faire A "en vue de" B = B est l'objectif / le but de l'action A
you seem to be confused because I inverted the order in which these two conditions are enumerated.
As Asker confirmed that what was quoted as "les conditions" is in fact in the ST "les règles", these "rules" are applicable only if both of these conditions are satisfied:
(1) - "en vue de" => these "rules" apply only to the procedure for entering into the contract, for the purpose of the "negotiating of the contract" (but not to the content of the contract itself) (2) - "lors de" => these "rules" apply only at the time of agreeing the contract (after that these "rules" are irrelevant)
If samples from the Web are anything to go by, it's very likely that these "rules" are from the "Distance Selling Regulations" - it would make perfect sense if whatever they are selling they are selling on the Web (or over the phone). Even if it's about some different set of "rules" it wouldn't change the translation, but usually it helps when you are sure what's the whole story about ...
I fear your revised proposed translation still misses the point — as well as being clunky and awkward in EN, not to say grammatically incorrect.
"...the rules apply to and on conclusion of the first contract and to automatically renewed (renewable) contracts..."
You appear to have created an 'and...and...' construction, common in FR but not used in EN; the word order here requires the reader to realize that 'to' and 'of' both refer to 'conclusion', but because the collocation 'apply to' is so strong, it overwhelms the sense you are seeking of just 'apply' tout court. In any case, I think you have weakened both the structure and the sense of the phrase overall.
I think you are misquoting Daryo, who simply suggested "...at the time of and for the purpose of ..." — with just an inversion of the 2 expressions to help it read better in EN
Thank you everybody for your contributions. For more context ..
conformement à l'article L... les règles ... ne s’appliquent qu’au premier contrat, pour les contrats à durée déterminée suivis d’autres contrats de même nature, sous condition que pas plus d’1 an ne se soit écoulé entre deux contrats ;
ne s’appliquent qu’en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial, pour les contrats renouvelables par tacite reconduction.
so the rules apply to the first contract, on conclusion of the first contract. 'Something' applies to subsequent automatically renewed contracts. I think the phrase might be buggy, but I tend to go with
'the rules apply to and on conclusion of the first contract and to automatically renewed (renewable) contracts'
and there is no "ambiguity" whatsoever - when you have a fuller context.
@Asker: what's the point of not quoting THE WHOLE SENTENCE when it's a bog standard clause found in THOUSANDS of contracts?
Can't see any "confidentiality" issues in doing so ... OTOH given the widespread propensity not to look further than what's immediately available, you would get far less "out of context" wild guesses - as then it would be clear that "les conditions" in this ST are NOT "conditions" contained in the contract itself but "conditions" that are part of the law that applies to certain types of contracts.
I think your point is based on a common misconception: 'lors' does not mean 'during' (that's 'pendant' or 'durant') — it actually means, in essence, 'at the time of' (think of other expressions like 'alors', 'lorsque', etc.)
Now it sometimes happens that the translation we end up using turns out to be 'during' — because in EN we don't have one single, neat term for 'at the time of'! But it's crucial to not lose sight of that underlying meaning: so it does not have the sense of a finite ending that 'during' so often conveys in EN
It almost sounds like a protocol as "lors" (during signing) suggests that the conditions will no longer apply after signing !?!?!? So I think Phil is absolutely right to ask for more context before making a difficult line call.
Surely it's 'en vue de...' + 'lors de ...' — and I'd have assumed that might mean 'in the light of...'? (and then the sense of 'at the time of...')
And of course, they both also relate to '...la conclusion du contrat initial'!
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
2 hrs confidence:
in relation to and upon signing [conclusion] of
Explanation: I would understand this to mean that the T&Cs only apply to this contract, and obv only when the contract is executed. presumably just trying to exclude the scope being extended to previous or future contracts.
Olga Koepping United Kingdom Local time: 21:24 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English, German
Notes to answerer
Asker: that sounds about right ..
7 hrs confidence: peer agreement (net): -1
with a view to and during
Explanation: I found the French and English version of the same contract (see both web references below)
Example sentence(s):
- only with a view to and during signing of the initial contract for contracts that are renewable by tacit renewal.
Michael Delrieu France Local time: 22:24 Native speaker of: French
7 hrs confidence:
only with a view to the initial contract when entered into
Explanation: alos: /with a view *of* and upon making the orginal agreement/ - UK Solicitors prefer a non-binding agreement to a binding contract.
Note that the UK Partnerhip Act 1890 refers to carrying on business with a view *of* and not to profit - the archaic wording possibly refelcting the ambiguity in this case.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 jour 49 minutes (2020-06-19 09:48:42 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Ha, ha - good 'view of profit' question: UK judges, lawyers and law students have been asking that question since 1890. The Aussies have merely changed the wording to 'with a view to' - a questionable move that, as I know from UK co. & partnership law exams, will come in for a deduction of one point. https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/partnership NB the idea is to make a profit in the future, but the Beatles' pop group or band had been considered - in retrospect and on dissolution - to have been an 'informal partnership'. IMO, UK and US property speculators who set up publicity-shy partnerships tp claim tax breaks and VAT clawbacks /e.g. on restoration of run-down properties/ are acting 'with a view of gain' and strictly 'not with a view to profit.'
Example sentence(s):
UK Partnership Act 1Persons carrying on a business in common with a view *of* profit This is an essential part of there being a partnership. If persons are not carrying on a business in common, or are not doing so with a view *of* profit ..
Adrian MM. Austria Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 86
Notes to answerer
Asker: But what does with a view of profit mean? Does it mean that you're making profit or that you are likely to make profit?
17 hrs confidence: peer agreement (net): +2
[certaines conditions] ne s'appliquent qu'en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial
[...] will apply only at the time of and for the purpose of entering into the initial contract
Explanation: missing context:
this a part of a bog standard / boilerplate clause found in the wording of thousands of contracts published in the searchable Web (and probably even more in the non-searchable Web and outside the Web!):
[certaines conditions] ne s'appliquent qu'en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial, pour les contrats renouvelables par tacite reconduction.
One sample, THIS being the original text:
Page 10:
9/ Faculté de renonciation .... Il est précisé que les règles applicables en matière de vente à distance ne s’appliquent : - qu’au premier contrat, pour les contrats à durée déterminée suivis d'opérations successives ou d'une série d'opérations distinctes, de même nature, échelonnées dans le temps ; - qu'en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial pour les contrats renouvelables par tacite reconduction.
so the part [... les règles applicables en matière de vente à distance ne s’appliquent] ... - qu'en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial pour les contrats renouvelables par tacite reconduction.
would be:
- [distance selling rules will apply only] at the time of and for the purpose ofentering into the initial contract, for contracts renewable by tacit reconduction.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 19 hrs (2020-06-19 04:13:56 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
qu'en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial
and most of them go to add
qu'en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial pour les contrats renouvelables par tacite reconduction.
Also, if you think of it, anything that would apply "lors de la conclusion du contrat" can not be IN the contract itself (as a contract can not apply before it's even agreed) so these "conditions" must be "outside of the contract", like in some rules (laws) applicable to the contract.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 day 3 hrs (2020-06-19 12:09:39 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
"en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial"
can be expanded in two separate clauses:
- en vue de la conclusion du contrat initial => for the purpose of (entering into the initial contract) + - lors de la conclusion du contrat initial => at the time of (entering into the initial contract)
You could stick to the same order in EN i.e. "... for the purpose of and at the time of ..."
It seemed to me that this order sounds more logical: "... at the time of and for the purpose of ...", but using one or the other makes no difference regarding the meaning.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 day 3 hrs (2020-06-19 12:55:51 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
faire A "en vue de" B = B est l'objectif / le but de l'action A
Daryo United Kingdom Local time: 21:24 Specializes in field Native speaker of: Serbian, French PRO pts in category: 112
Grading comment
First validated answer (validated by peer agreement)
Notes to answerer
Asker: This seems to make logical sense. 'en vue' is then not so much a time construct but for the purpose of. Thanks