This site uses cookies.
Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site,
while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used.
For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
English translation: lawyer having filed notice of acting/paced him/herself on record
14:56 Jan 11, 2020
French to English translations [PRO] Law/Patents - Law (general)
French term or phrase:avocat constitué près de
Summons connected with a will:
"D'AVOIR A COMPARAITRE dans un délai de QUINZE JOURS à compter de la date du présent acte, à l'audience et par-devant Messieurs les Président et Juges composant le Tribunal de Grande Instance de XXX, siégeant au Palais de Justice de ladite ville, salle ordinaire des audiences, par ministère d'avocat constitué près dudit Tribunal."
This expression has always bugged me. Constituer is, usually, "briefed" or "instructed". What is the precise meaning of près de in that case: does it mean "for" i.e. in the sense of "for the purpose of [this particular court]"... ? I've always read "instructed" as meaning "instructed by the client"... so how does the court relate to things?
Or could this, instead, actually be using a different meaning of constituer? I.e. not specific to the client or the case, but making reference to some more permanent relationship which the counsel has with the court? This seems pretty unlikely, since "avocat constitué" is kind of a set phrase the meaning of which is known: "briefed counsel".
Notice of acting | Practical Law https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com › ... A notice to be used to inform the court that your firm is acting for the client in the relevant proceedings. To access this resource and thousands more, register for a free, no-obligation trial of Practical Law.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 day 5 hrs (2020-01-12 20:20:07 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
You wrote: Your "admitted to practice before the Tribunal" is different from the text's se constituer près du Tribunal, i.e. "telling the court you represent a person".
Since the poster's text doesn't say "se constituer près du Tribunal" (but rather "avocat constitué près dudit Tribunal"), could you point to some basis for your argument? IOW, some reason that you think "avocat constitué près dudit Tribunal" implicitly means "avocat qui s'est constitué près dudit Tribunal"?
I'm not being facetious or rhetorical here. I'm just asking why you don't seem to think that "avocat constitué..." could mean something slightly different from "avocat qui s'est constitué..."
Am I misunderstanding what you wrote, or are you both misreading very straightforward laws/rules? Pls. explain.
AllegroTrans refers to art. 828 of FR Code of Civ. Procedure and the loi re simplification du droit mentioned in it. That law only applies to "certaines matières, en raison de leur nature, ou en considération de la valeur du litige" -- IOW tiny cases involving individuals: that law says such cases don't require lawyers (though parties can use a lawyer if they want). It has nothing to do with where lawyers can practice.
SafeTex seems to think any FR lawyer can practice before any TGI ("any lawyer can represent a client in a... TGI"). That is wrong. Pre-loi Macron, lawyers could practice only before the TGI of their professional domicile. Now, their scope of permitted practice is larger: they can practice before any of the TGIs that fall under the Cour d'Appel of their professional domicile. https://fr.quora.com/Quel-est-limpact-de-la-loi-Macron-sur-l...
So, if your case is in TGI X, and TGI's X, Y and Z all fall under Cour d'Appel A, then you will need to hire a lawyer whose professional domicile is in either X, Y or Z.
You wrote: "Eric Dupond-Moretti... was based in Lille... but you see him defending clients in Paris and across France... If Eliza Hall's answer 'attorney admitted to practice before [X Tribunal]' was correct, this would not be possible !!!"
Oh lord. SafeTex, Eric Dupond-Moretti has been admitted to practice before all those courts (and courts in Morocco, Belgium, Switzerland, etc., per his bio). In FR as in the US, admission to practice before X court is not the same thing as admission to XYZ bar where the court sits.
Being admitted to XYZ bar is one thing (and it carries with it the right to practice before certain courts within XYZ jurisdiction); being admitted to practice before the courts and administrative tribunals that AREN'T included in your bar admission is another.
Random example: here is how lawyers who are members of various bars can be admitted to practice before the United States District Court for the District of South Carolina (which isn't automatically included in South Carolina bar admission): http://www.scd.uscourts.gov/Attorney/admission.asp
Glad we agree on this and you have reproduced the entire list that I was citing a part of.
We also see this with the big names such as "Eric Dupond-Moretti". He was based in Lille (until recently) but you see him defending clients in Paris and across France in other regions.
If Eliza Hall's answer "attorney admitted to practice before [the said Tribunal]" was correct, this would not be possible !!! (at least not in a TI or TGI)
The Prudhommes too do not apply any such restrictions and they even let lawyers from other regions plead their cases first so that they can get back to where they live! (they do this in Lille at least)
La liste des personnes habilitées à assister ou représenter les parties devant le TGI pour les litiges relevant actuellement du TI est, elle, tout à fait déterminée et reprend en toute logique celle déjà fixée à l’article 828 du code de procédure civile pour les tribunaux d’instance.
L’article 2 de la loi de 2007 est ainsi dorénavant rédigé : "Par dérogation au premier alinéa de l'article 4 de la loi n° 71-1130 du 31 décembre 1971 portant réforme de certaines professions judiciaires et juridiques, dans certaines matières, en raison de leur nature, ou en considération de la valeur du litige, les parties peuvent se défendre elles-mêmes ou se faire assister ou représenter devant le tribunal de grande instance, outre par un avocat, par :
1° Leur conjoint ;
2° Leur concubin ou la personne avec laquelle elles ont conclu un pacte civil de solidarité ;
3° Leurs parents ou alliés en ligne directe ;
4° Leurs parents ou alliés en ligne collatérale jusqu'au troisième degré inclus ;
5° Les personnes exclusivement attachées à leur service personnel ou à leur entreprise (…)
Le représentant, s’il n’est pas avocat, doit justifier d’un pouvoir spécial."
What if we analyse the reality rather than the language?
I've seen cases in TGI (Lille) where a lawyer was NOT from my region (barreau)
I have also read
La liste des personnes habilitées à assister ou représenter les parties devant le TGI pour les litiges relevant actuellement du TI est, elle, tout à fait déterminée et reprend en toute logique celle déjà fixée à l’article 828 du code de procédure civile pour les tribunaux d’instance
and the first line in article 828 says
un avocat
without any further restrictions.
It is also somewhat common practice if you are attacking a company etc. in another region NOT to take a lawyer from that same region as they or their cabinet may have already represented the party you are attacking and can therefore "put pressure on the local lawyer/cabinet"
So for these reason, I think that Conor and AllegroTrans are probably right here as it's a case in a TGI, not a court of Appeal or the Cour de Cassation.
ph-b (X)
France
Mpoma,
16:25 Jan 16, 2020
Apologies for the various edits, but the <p> thing worked in the preview version of the message and not in the real text!
ph-b (X)
France
Eliza,
16:20 Jan 16, 2020
Thank you for your lecture on French reflexive verbs and for agreeing that I am able to understand those subtle differences that rule them.
Which is precisely why I believe that your Il vous faudra un avocat constitué près du Tribunal does not mean "You will need a lawyer admitted to practice before the Tribunal." What it means is: Il vous faudra un avocat (qui s'est) constitué près du Tribunal, as in "Lorsqu'un avocat informe officiellement une juridiction de ce qu'il va dorénavant... représenter... X... devant elle, il fait acte de constitution" (link supplied above).
Your "admitted to practice before the Tribunal" actually refers to n’a cependant la possibilité de postuler que devant les tribunaux du ressort de la cour d'appel dont dépend le barreau auquel il est inscrit, à l’inverse du droit de plaider, qui peut être exercé sur tout le territoire national (https://www.vie-publique.fr/fiches/38277-role-de-lavocat-ass...
Your "admitted to practice before the Tribunal" is different from the text's se constituer près du Tribunal, i.e. "telling the court you represent a person".
A PS because I ran out of space in the other post. This is also from the loi Macron:
"Par dérogation au deuxième alinéa de l’article 5, les avocats inscrits au barreau de l’un des tribunaux de grande instance de Paris, Bobigny, Créteil et Nanterre peuvent postuler auprès de chacune de ces juridictions. Ils peuvent postuler auprès de la cour d’appel de Paris quand ils ont postulé devant l’un des tribunaux de grande instance de Paris, Bobigny et Créteil, et auprès de la cour d’appel de Versailles quand ils ont postulé devant le tribunal de grande instance de Nanterre.
Il s’agit pour un avocat, de déroger à la règle, en ayant la possibilité, sous certaines conditions, de postuler devant une juridiction située en dehors du ressort dans lequel il a son domicile professionnel. Les tribunaux de Paris, Bobigny, Créteil et Nanterre sont situés sur deux régions judiciaires, relevant de la Cour d’appel de Paris et celle de Versailles."
In both the US and France, being admitted to X bar and being admitted to practice before Y court (or before the courts of XYZ jurisdiction) are not the same thing. That's why we've got two different terms in EN (admitted to X bar/admitted to practice before Y court), and in FR.
US: when you pass the bar exam you become a member of X state's bar (let's say New York). You can thus practice before any NY *state* court. To practice before a NY *federal* court, you need to be admitted by that court (same goes for practicing before the US Supreme Court, etc.).
FR: before the loi Macron du 6 août 2015, lawyers could practice "exclusivement devant le tribunal de grande instance dans le ressort duquel ils ont établi leur résidence professionnelle et devant la cour d’appel dont ce tribunal dépend."
Since the loi Macron, the place of professional domicile -- not the bar of which they're a member -- continues to be the key issue: they "peuvent postuler devant l’ensemble des tribunaux de grande instance du ressort de cour d’appel dans lequel ils ont établi leur résidence professionnelle et devant ladite cour d’appel."
I would agree with you that the sentence was about the lawyer in charge of the case, if the sentence said that. But it doesn't.
All the examples at your link use the phrase "l'avocat en charge du dossier." Obviously that means the lawyer in charge of the case. But the sentence you're arguing with me about says "la Cour d'appel en charge du dossier," which, just as obviously, means the court of appeal in charge of the case.
Reminder for those who care, so they don't have to scroll back in the discussion -- this is the sentence Adrian is taking issue with: "Il vous faudra un Avocat constitué près la Cour d'appel en charge du dossier, au besoin consultez la liste du barreau concerné." https://www.alexia.fr/questions/160533/procedure.htm In other words, "You will need a lawyer admitted to practice before the Court of Appeal in charge of the case...."
Your example from the Dictionnaire Juridique is obviously correct. My point is not at all that "constituer" can't mean represent a person. Of course it can.
The point is just that (se) constituer in a legal context has more than one meaning. These examples are two different things:
"un avocat [peut] refuser de se constituer pour une personne": a lawyer can refuse to represent a person [a.k.a. refuse to become the attorney of record for a person].
"Il vous faudra un avocat constitué près du Tribunal": You will need a lawyer admitted to practice before the Tribunal.
What a lawyer does for a person and what a lawyer does with respect to a court are two different things. "Se constituer pour une personne" and "constitué près du tribunal/de la cour" do not mean the same thing (and I'm sure you understand that). The verbs used in those terms are virtually the same in FR (not exactly the same -- "X se constitue" is not identical to "X est constitué"), but in EN we would use two different words (represent/become attorney of record, vs. be admitted to practice).
To represent you in that case, you need a lawyer who is admitted to practice before that court.
ph-b (X)
France
Eliza,
18:01 Jan 13, 2020
Of course, clients must be told what they need to know (lack of space prevented me from spelling it out in my last post and my reasoning was not based on that). The example you quote can be understood your way... or mine! :-) Here's another example: la Garde des Sceaux a rappelé que le (sic) profession d'avocat était une profession libérale et qu'un avocat pouvait refuser de se constituer pour une personne qui lui avait demandé de l'assister ou de la représenter [i.e. act on behalf of a person in a particular case].( https://www.dictionnaire-juridique.com/definition/avocat.php )
Again, it is .... un Avocat constitué près la Cour d'appel *en charge = pour se charger du dossier* and not an Avocat (ou Avoué admis) à la Cour d'appel.
I understand why you would see the text as meaning that, and apologies, but I don't think you're right. Here's a French lawyer advising someone about what to do if they need to change lawyers during a case, particularly if they have moved since the case began:
"Si vous avez déménagé, c'est la Cour d'Appel déjà saisie qui restera compétente pour trancher le litige. Il vous faudra un Avocat constitué près la Cour d'appel en charge du dossier, au besoin consultez la liste du barreau concerné." https://www.alexia.fr/questions/160533/procedure.htm
As a matter of common sense it goes without saying that you need a lawyer who's admitted to practice before the tribunal in question, you're totally right on that. But legal notices spell out everything you could possibly need to know, including things that should go without saying, so that you can't claim you weren't told.
ph-b (X)
France
Eliza, re: "lawyer admitted to practice before..."
16:35 Jan 13, 2020
The whole sentence is : D'AVOIR A COMPARAITRE... à l'audience... par ministère d'avocat constitué près dudit Tribunal, i.e. "will (have to) be represented by a lawyer who will have notified the court beforehand that s-he is the lawyer (appointed by the client to be) in charge of this case". This is not a translation, obviously, just plain English to explain how I understand the sentence: constitué means here that the court will have been told who the lawyer is for this case.<p>It does not mean "a lawyer who can appear before that tribunal"/"admitted to practice before the court" (that goes without saying). See above (20:26 Jan 11, esp. last sentence of first quote). See also: A peine de nullité, l’acte de signification indique à l’intimé que, faute pour lui de constituer avocat dans un délai de quinze jours à compter de celle-ci, il s’expose à ce qu’un arrêt soit rendu contre lui... En l’absence de constitution adverse dans ce délai, l’ordonnance de clôture a été prononcée le 10 Mai 2011. ( https://www.village-justice.com/articles/Attention-delai-qui... )<p> l think that Adrian MM. and AllegroTrans got it right.<p>
Mpoma: Can you confirm that further down in the summons, it says something to the effect of "Dans les 15 jours de la date indiquée... vous êtes tenu... de charger un avocat au barreau de XYZ de vous représenter devant le tribunal"?
I'm betting it does.
Often "avocat constitué" refers to the attorney of record for a given party. In other words, the attorney chosen by or appointed to that party, who has filed whatever is necessary to become officially that party's representative in this case:
L'avocat constitué pour défendre le prévenu: the attorney appointed to defend the accused.
L'avocat est constitué par la famille: the lawyer is hired/engaged by the family.
However, in this case two facts point away from that translation:
1. It says "avocat constitué près dudit Tribunal." In other words "constitué" doesn't refer to the relationship between the lawyer and the client but between the lawyer and the tribunal.
2. This is a summons to appear at a hearing relating to a will. When a summons gets sent out, there is no attorney of record yet.
So this means a lawyer admitted to practice before the tribunal in question.
That quote from the dictionnaire juridique is helpful and kind of answers the question I had: "constituer" here seems to involve a 3-way relationship, between the lawyer, the client and the court. Whereas the phrase in English "instructed counsel" implies nothing about the court having "accepted" the counsel, or having any say in the matter.
Indeed, in the second half of your answer it seems clear that in this "constitution", the main person involved in this action is the lawyer, not the client.
At least it helps with "près du tribunal" (or sometimes "près le tribunal"): it is just "with".
ph-b (X)
France
"reference to some more permanent relationship?"
19:26 Jan 11, 2020
"Constituer" désigne le fait d'investir une personne physique ou morale d'un droit ou d'un pouvoir. On peut appliquer ce verbe à la désignation d'un mandataire... Lorsqu'un avocat informe officiellement une juridiction de ce qu'il va dorénavant comparaître pour représenter M. X ou la société Untel qui est partie dans un procès pendant devant elle, il fait acte de constitution. ( https://www.dictionnaire-juridique.com/definition/constituer... ) Dr. Établir (qqn) dans une situation légale. (Le Grand Robert de la langue française) Une constitution est une simple déclaration écrite sur le modèle suivant :...Exemple : je me constitue dans un dossier devant le TGI de Bobigny, face à un confrère parisien et un confrère de Nanterre. ( https://www.maitre-eolas.fr/post/2006/07/27/407-les-actes-du... ) Don't let the name of the link mislead you if you don't know "Me Eolas"; he or she is a well-known lawyer blogger here in France.
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
39 mins confidence: peer agreement (net): -1
Attorney (Lawyer) of Record appointed with
Explanation: I think the asker in the first weblink is right with Attorney of Record. I prefer this even for consumption in the UK where a 'Solicitor (vs. a Lawyer or Barrister) of Record' would go down on the court record as the lawyer handling the case from start to finish.
Reasons militating against using solicitor include 1. an Anglo- / Brit. Comm.-centric angle and 2. the 'rightful' equivalent of avoué, the title having reputedly been abolished in Belgium (over 40 years ago) and France, but which officers of the French court are very much alive and well 'près la cour d'appel', esp. in the South of France where they hang out - or rather hang in there.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 hr (2020-01-11 16:53:16 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
PS in the UK: Solicitor appointed 'on the record' with....
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 4 hrs (2020-01-11 19:53:25 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
OK Counsel of Record appointed with the Court works in AmE and I have no truck with as a general translation: https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/counsel-of-record - in E&W, would shift the emphasis from the 'Solicitor on the Record'. There is less of a problem these days with direct public access to a Barrister who need not be instructed by a Solicitor, Accountant or Architect etc.
PS I believe 'constitué' squares with the Anglo-Am. idea of one whose name is filed at the court for the duration of the case - or until another lawyer is instructed. https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/benchmarks/keeping-the-record-s... I don't think it means one who has been permanently appointed to the court e.g. as a Criminal Defender or query: in this case, as a Probate Registrar.
Example sentence(s):
An attorney of record is any lawyer or barrister recognized by a court as representing (and therefore responsible to) a party to legal proceedings before it.
Les avoués sont des auxiliaires de justice qui exercent près la cour d'appel.
Adrian MM. Austria Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 359
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks... I've always tended to use "counsel" as a catchall for avocat. What are your views on that? "Attorney" strikes me as a tad American, don't you think? And "lawyer" might work, but seems not to have the right register: not formal enough. There are a fair view opinions on the subject in these archives of course.
peer agreement (net): -1
