Madame X veuve Y

English translation: Mrs. Y (widowed), née X

14:42 Jan 11, 2020
French to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law (general)
French term or phrase: Madame X veuve Y
From a will, listing the heirs.

The archives already contains an entry "veuve Y", but I don't think I've come across this formula before:

"Mrs X, widow of Mr Y", perhaps?

Incidentally, from the document, I can tell that X is in fact the maiden name of this person: it is not that she has remarried and taken on a third surname.

To me as a British person this makes me wonder whether this formula is actually drawing attention to the fact that this person is now deliberately making reference to her maiden name, or whether it is just part of the legal formula, akin to "Madame X épouse Y", which translates as "Mrs Y, nee X".

If this latter hypothesis is true, should this also then be "Mrs Y, nee X" or perhaps "Mrs Y (widowed), nee X"...

Or is she now "Mrs X", having reverted to her maiden name?

By the way, there is only one veuve mentioned in this document.
Mpoma
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:16
English translation:Mrs. Y (widowed), née X
Explanation:
See discussion: in France, women's legal names do not change upon marriage. Miss X may become Mrs. Y after marriage, but that is a social change, not a legal one. Your social name may appear on, say, your checkbook, but in legal documents, married women are referred to as "Madame X, épouse Y." If JFK and Jackie Kennedy (née Bouvier) had lived in France, her legal name would've been "Madame Bouvier, épouse Kennedy."

AllegroTrans' idea works, but is unclear because we don't know why she was "formerly X." Perhaps she legally changed her name to X before marrying Mr. Y; perhaps X was her former husband's name. Who knows? In the FR we know exactly why, but in AllegroTrans' proposal, we don't.

But we have a way to convey this in EN. We use the French "née" to indicate a married (or widowed) woman's maiden name. Using it in this translation just requires flipping the order of the names.

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Note added at 2 days 23 hrs (2020-01-14 14:33:10 GMT)
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PS about French law on surnames:

"En se mariant, une femme conserve son nom de famille.

Toutefois, le mariage permet à chaque époux (quel que soit son sexe) d'utiliser le nom de l'autre époux(se) ou le double-nom : il s'agit d'un nom d'usage....

Dans tous les cas, l'intéressé(e) conserve le nom inscrit sur son acte de naissance. Il restera toujours inscrit sur ses papiers."

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F77
Selected response from:

Eliza Hall
United States
Local time: 09:16
Grading comment
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
5 +2Mrs. Y (widowed), née X
Eliza Hall
3Mrs Y (widowed), formerly X
AllegroTrans


Discussion entries: 17





  

Answers


1 day 7 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
Mrs Y (widowed), formerly X


Explanation:
I would suggest this formula.

I don't think it's anything about drawing attention, but a standard formula

Using "née X" would be wrong as it is suggesting that X was her maiden name, which would not be the case if she married more than once. "X" is her name before marrying Mr. X

A song or poem about this would not be amiss.

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Note added at 2 days 1 hr (2020-01-13 16:33:58 GMT)
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Asker: I still maintain that the "catchall" phrase should be used, even though you do know that X was this lady's maiden name

AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:16
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 1355
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks. As I say in my question, from the document it is absolutely certain that X is her maiden name / birth name. Otherwise, I agree with your point and this "catchall" phrase would be the one to use in other circumstances.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Eliza Hall: Works but unclear.
16 hrs
  -> Simply using "veuve" does not expressly guarantee that "X" was this lady's maiden name, "X" was simply her name before she married Mr. Y. There is nothing "unclear" about this and it works every time.
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1 day 23 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +2
Mrs. Y (widowed), née X


Explanation:
See discussion: in France, women's legal names do not change upon marriage. Miss X may become Mrs. Y after marriage, but that is a social change, not a legal one. Your social name may appear on, say, your checkbook, but in legal documents, married women are referred to as "Madame X, épouse Y." If JFK and Jackie Kennedy (née Bouvier) had lived in France, her legal name would've been "Madame Bouvier, épouse Kennedy."

AllegroTrans' idea works, but is unclear because we don't know why she was "formerly X." Perhaps she legally changed her name to X before marrying Mr. Y; perhaps X was her former husband's name. Who knows? In the FR we know exactly why, but in AllegroTrans' proposal, we don't.

But we have a way to convey this in EN. We use the French "née" to indicate a married (or widowed) woman's maiden name. Using it in this translation just requires flipping the order of the names.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 23 hrs (2020-01-14 14:33:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

PS about French law on surnames:

"En se mariant, une femme conserve son nom de famille.

Toutefois, le mariage permet à chaque époux (quel que soit son sexe) d'utiliser le nom de l'autre époux(se) ou le double-nom : il s'agit d'un nom d'usage....

Dans tous les cas, l'intéressé(e) conserve le nom inscrit sur son acte de naissance. Il restera toujours inscrit sur ses papiers."

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F77

Eliza Hall
United States
Local time: 09:16
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 145
Grading comment
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  AllegroTrans: Simply using "veuve" does not expressly guarantee that "X" was this lady's maiden name. so this is not a safe assumption
1 hr
  -> In France, it does. See discussion.

agree  Yvonne Gallagher: agree with your reasoning and use of née
8 hrs
  -> Thank you.

agree  Conor McAuley: Absolutely agree.
23 hrs
  -> Thank you.
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