tenu indéfinement et solidairement

English translation: held liable without any limit, jointly and severally

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)

French term or phrase:	tenu indéfinement et solidairement
English translation:	held liable without any limit, jointly and severally
Entered by:	Adrian MM.

15:32 Dec 18, 2019

French to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law: Contract(s)

French term or phrase: tenu indéfinement et solidairement

Requirements to enter into an agreement:

"- qu'il n’est pas et n'a pas été associé depuis moins d’un an dans une société mise en liquidation ou en redressement et dans laquelle il était tenu indéfiniment et solidairement du passif social ;"

I get the gist of this and I have it as, "as regards which he or she was bound, indefinitely, and on a joint and several basis, to pay the company's debts".

Conor McAuley KudoZ activity Questions: 1264 (none open) (122 closed without grading) Answers: 2485 France
Local time: 02:01

liable without any limit, as well as jointly and severally

Explanation:
- as requested and solicited, though I prefer to do the 'soliciting' especially in public!

PS unlimited liability in ENG, except for a corporation outwardly and Lloyd's underwriting names, is not boilerplate.

Tá fáilte romhat!

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Note added at 1 day 1 hr (2019-12-19 16:36:11 GMT)
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Not to worry about the fada accent. The paternity of my own siblings has long been in doubt, even outside (my Welsh sister-in-law's) Land of our (putative) Fathers.

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Note added at 1 day 6 hrs (2019-12-19 21:47:15 GMT)
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Well, Conor, it is in fact a 'deviant-looking affiliation' joke. Intriguing point about Ireland depicted as a woman. (My mates from Dublin always used to ask compatriots: 'how's your father?').

Germany is rather a fatherland, as opposed to the ex-Soviet Union as a motherland into which the Ukraine, annexed during World War II in 1940, had been 're-incorporated', plus the towering warrior statue at Stalingrad now Volgograd - definitely and indefinitely - depicts 'mother Russia'.

Selected response from:

Adrian MM.
Austria

Grading comment

Selected automatically based on peer agreement.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

Summary of answers provided

4 +4

liable without any limit, as well as jointly and severally

Adrian MM.

4 -3

solidarily liable, without limit

Tim Webb

3 -3

bound by indefinite, solidary liability

SafeTex

Summary of reference entries provided

liable without limit, as well as jointly and severally, for

Adrian MM.

Discussion entries: 6

Eliza Hall

United States

Without limit

20:12 Dec 19, 2019

@SafeTex: indéfiniment is not "until he kicks the bucket," it is, as Adrian said, without limit as to the amount -- i.e. they could lose everything they have in the world, not just everything they invested in the business.

When a company goes belly up, shareholders/investors can only lose the value of their shares/investments; they might lose everything they put into the company, but all their other property (house, car, bank accounts etc.) is protected.

Partners, however, are jointly liable for the company's debts, up to the entire amount of all the property each partner owns in the world. That's what indéfiniment means here: even if you only invested $10, you are still fully on the hook, to the maximum extent possible, for the company's debts.

"La responsabilité solidaire signifie qu’un créancier peut poursuivre un seul associé de la SNC [société en nom collectif] pour la totalité d’une dette. La responsabilité indéfinie implique que les associés sont responsables sur l’ensemble de leurs biens personnels."
https://www.economie.gouv.fr/entreprises/societe-en-nom-coll...

SafeTex

France

@ Conor

18:16 Dec 19, 2019

Thanks for saying that it's NOT wrong.

Personally, I'll be happy with whatever you choose. You can even say:

"the guy has to pick up the bill (liability) until he kicks the bucket (indefinitely) and I'll still go along with you :)

Regards

SafeTex

Conor McAuley

France

ASKER

@ Eliza:

17:28 Dec 19, 2019

A very good and fascinating point, well made.

HOWEVER, the term "jointly and severally" is so entrenched and solidary just sounds wrong on the ear, even though it's not...

Conor McAuley

France

ASKER

Adrian and AllegroTrans

17:26 Dec 19, 2019

A blast from the past:

https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-contracts/5...

Eliza Hall

United States

Solidary vs. joint and several

17:15 Dec 19, 2019

One thing to bear in mind when translating FR/EN legal texts is that you are translating not just between languages, but between legal systems.

Common law is the legal system used in England and places whose legal systems derive from English law, e.g., Canada except Quebec, all US states except Louisiana, and Africa's former British colonies. Civil law is the system used in France and jurisdictions that derive their legal systems from France: Quebec, Louisiana, the former French colonies in Africa...

The term "solidary liability" is the "civil law equivalent" of the common-law concept of "joint and several liability" (look at the "See also" section here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_and_several_liability). On the rare occasions when this term is used in English, it's in an English-speaking jurisdiction whose legal system is based on French civil law. In other words... Louisiana. That's why Safetex's link here cites a Louisiana court case ("La. App." = Louisiana court of appeal): https://definitions.uslegal.com/s/solidary-liability/

"Joint and several" is the common-law term. Unless you're specifically translating for a Louisiana client/court, that's the translation.

John ANTHONY

France

@ Adrian MM

20:40 Dec 18, 2019

Grazie mille... Большое спасибо !

Answers

9 hrs confidence:

peer agreement (net): -3

bound by indefinite, solidary liability

Explanation:
Hello
I think this question may cause lots of discussion.
Firstly as I see that there are hits for both "soiidary" and "solidarity" liability. Secondly, I see that "indéfinement" has already been translated as "without limit" in a suggestion which raises the issue of whether its without a time limit or without a pecuniary limit, how to know and how to disambiguate this in English if known.
And then the debate of whether to use the semi-legalese term "jointly and severally", proposed by Adrian, perhaps instead of "solidary".
So I expect a deluge of disagrees and neutrals on all answers and as the asker has further context I assume in the translation, he'll just have to decide what is right here.

SafeTex
France
Local time: 02:01
Works in field
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 52

Notes to answerer

Asker: A lovely summary if I may say so! See Adrian MM.' link to Fourth's previous answer. All sorted.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)

disagree

Eliza Hall: See above disagrees with Tim Webb's answer. This is "joint and severally liable" in EN (or as a noun, joint and several liability). "Solidary" is not a word we use.

14 hrs

-> Complete rubbish as usual. See for instance https://definitions.uslegal.com/s/solidary-liability/ or https://www.lawinsider.com/clause/solidary-liability or https://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/solidary-liability...

disagree

Yvonne Gallagher: with others. Boilerplate legalese. In other words I disagree.

14 hrs

-> No probs either way. I did say I expected a deluge of disagrees and neutrals on most answers and if you want "joint and several liability", I fully understand.

disagree

AllegroTrans: No sludge, just a plain disagree

9 days

-> Out of three suggestions, there are actually two of us who think that "solidary" or solidarity" is okay.

2 hrs confidence:

peer agreement (net): -3

solidarily liable, without limit

Explanation:

For info, see Termium's note on "jointly and severally":
Conjointement et solidairement : Formule aussi courante que vicieuse. L'obligation conjointe divisant les poursuites, l'obligation solidaire les réunissant, les deux ne sauraient aller ensemble et, au pied de la lettre, l'expression est dénuée de tout sens juridique. Pour lui restituer une utilité, il faut prendre « conjointement » dans son acception commune « de concert » et ne conférer de portée juridique qu'à l'adverbe « solidairement ». De fait, la jurisprudence assimile cette locution à une simple stipulation de solidarité.

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Note added at 1 day 1 hr (2019-12-19 16:57:56 GMT)
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I agree with your disagrees - solidarily liable is most probably only heard of in Louisiana... but I can't help feeling that "jointly and severally" is more of a transposition than a translation ...

Tim Webb
France
Local time: 02:01
Works in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 24

Notes to answerer

Asker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_and_several_liability For an unknown amount instead of indefinitely, which is the dictionary translation, so "without limit" is close to being correct.

1 day 52 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +4

liable without any limit, as well as jointly and severally

Adrian MM.
Austria
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 86

Grading comment

Selected automatically based on peer agreement.

Notes to answerer

Asker: Go raibh maith agat! (It's been a while, might be missing a fada there.)

Asker: I think you mean motherland or fatherland rather than paternity! I wonder whether Ireland and Wales are motherlands or fatherlands? I think Ireland is depicted as a woman in songs and poetry.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)

neutral

SafeTex: My only reservation with this is "without any limit" which could well be interpreted as pecuniary limits while I think "indéfinement" refers more to time. But I'm NOT against "jointly and severally"

12 mins

-> OK. In the context of liability, pecuniary are likelier than time limits cf. à durée indéterminée and 'ad infinitum' so leave 'open' https://www.linguee.com/french-english/translation/indéfinim...

agree

Eliza Hall: You're correct and Safetex isn't.

37 mins

-> Thanks. Safetex has a point and the possible construction could well 'indefinitely' be disputed in court.

agree

Cyril Tollari

18 hrs

-> Thanks de novo et merci de nouveau!

agree

Jack Dunwell: Yes Unlimited joint and several liability

1 day 1 hr

-> Thanks and even better. I would have been content to have left your previously chosen answer as a ref. comment to avoid any charge of plagiarism.

agree

AllegroTrans: "with unlimited joint and several liability" could be wound into the translation with a couple of tweaks methinks

8 days

Reference comments

2 hrs peer agreement (net): +4

Reference: liable without limit, as well as jointly and severally, for

Reference information:
We seem to have had this one before, other remarking that solidary is non-standard in Anglo-Am. contract law, plus Solidarity had been a Polish Trade(s) Union movement that had started at a dockyard in Gdansk / Danzig.

Otherwise, solidarity contributions in French nat. ins. means something ther than a 'closing of ranks'.

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Note added at 7 hrs (2019-12-18 22:36:56 GMT)
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reference repeated: https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/413...

Reference: http://https://eng.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-gene...

Adrian MM.
Austria
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 86

Note to reference poster

Asker: Fourth's answer fits the bill, thanks. I sometimes forget to search KudoZ for individual terms, particularly when under time pressure, as was the case here.

Asker: Would you like to post your comment as an answer please?

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)

agree

John ANTHONY

2 hrs

-> Merci and thanks!

agree

AllegroTrans: I think thjis could be made into an answer without "as well as" which rather clutter it

2 hrs

-> Thanks. The other(s) of course was referring to your good(-)self. That apart, I wanted to avoid too many 'ands', plus any predictable criticism of lifting the last ProZ answer.

agree

Eliza Hall: Solidary is used in Louisiana law because they have a France-derived civil law system. And perhaps Quebec English uses it too, for the same reason (I haven't checked). Everywhere else, it's "joint and several."

23 hrs

-> Yes. Abs. right. It was 'remiss' of me to miss out Louisana.

agree

Cyril Tollari

1 day 16 hrs

-> Merci de nouveau and thanks de novo!

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tenu indéfinement et solidairement

English translation: held liable without any limit, jointly and severally

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