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English translation: (their) general negative attitude towards women
11:21 Nov 21, 2019
French to English translations [PRO] Slang / Sexual harassment training
French term or phrase:...l’idée qu’on peut parfois se faire des femmes.
This is extracted from a preventing sexual harassment at work training course. The immediate context is a discussion of how harassers behave, and the things they rely on to be able to act with impunity, such as shame, victims' silence, and that 'qu’on peut parfois se faire des femmes.' I'm trying to figure out how to phrase this colloquially, without trivialising... It's being translated into British English.
It is in the singular both in the title and in her message of 16.34 yesterday. Se faire des idées des femmes doesn't sound right to me and se faire des idées sur les femmes would mean something else - although that's probably what the text is driving at.<p> Quand les harceleurs agissent sur des femmes, ils comptent sur l’idée qu’on peut parfois se faire des femmes. > "When they act in this way, their behaviour is based on what (some) men (?) sometimes think about women/how they view women." Not a translation, just what I think it means.<p>The more I read this sentence, the more it sounds as if it refers to the "general idea about women". I should stop reading and discussing it. :-)
for that clarification. I didn't realise that it had to be singular. May I just point out, however, that it is indeed singular in the cited text (at least in the question "title", if not fully quoted in heidipa's full explanation)? Maybe it has to be an indefinite article as well as being singular???
Ph_B (X)
France
Mpoma,
11:58 Nov 22, 2019
Yes actually, but in the singular: se faire une idée des femmes. The meaning is clear out of any context, but when you look back at the text, you're influenced or could be influenced by the topic of sexual harassment and by what se faire une femme means. Hence the question, I suppose.
Interesting. As you say, "se faire des idées" clearly means that these "ideas" are wrong. And this "on" here obviously refers to males who are inclined to harass. Can you not "se faire des idées *de* X" as well as "se faire des idées *sur* X"? To me, a non-Francophone, these seem equally natural. In which case I wouldn't see any need for any merging of expressions.
Ph_B (X)
France
A view from a Francophone
11:30 Nov 22, 2019
As I wrote yesterday, "your behaviour is based on what women are thought of (generally/your peer group/...). My hunch...".<p>Only heidipa knows how well the text is written but I've seen training courses that weren't exactly literary prize material and I wonder whether the ambiguity may not come from the expressions used in the source text and how they're used.<p>Avoir une idée sur may actually have been used instead of avoir une opinion sur - that happens -, which isn't the same as se faire une idée sur. The former is about having an opinion about something (avoir les idées claires), whereas the latter is about finding out about something (se faire une idée sur tel ou tel sujet), not to mention that se faire des idées sur means "being wrong about something".<p> It seems to me that both expressions were merged: "se faire une femme" and "avoir une idée". As I said, my hunch is that l'idée/l'opinion qu'on a parfois des femmes is what is meant. I'm not in the business of rewriting texts before translating them, but does this make it clearer: l'idée qu'on a des femmes, c'est qu'on peut se les faire?
The point is that innuendo is always ambiguous: you have to know how to read correctly apparently straightforward and particularly less-than-explicit expressions. I think there is a set colloquial expression involved here, "l'idée qu'on peut (parfois) se faire des femmes", which in fact has an exclusively sexual connotation. There are quite a few such expressions in French, certainly many more than in contemporary English (some Shakespearean expressions sometimes seem "more French" with this regard....), which are identified by the sheer vagueness or mysteriousness of the words used: I think this is then actually a covert, exclusive indicator of sexual reference.
This particular one is vague enough (if we go with the parsing I suggest, i.e. "ideas *about* women") that some French people may disagree with this exclusively sexual interpretation: it'd be nice to obtain views from Francophones. I also suspect that men (of any ethnicity) may possibly be statistically more inclined to use such cynical/humorous double-talk, with one another, about sexual topics than women.
... with "strange notions which some men have about women". I was thinking that this was enough to encompass male attitudes towards women's sexual availability inter alia. But I decided to squash my answer when I saw katsy's answer. It was only later that I realised katsy parses the phrase as "you can *do* women" rather than "you can get an idea *about* women". I don't think the former parsing is correct, and I don't think you'd find it in this context. The presence of "parfois" actually made me laugh when I realised this was how katsy parsed it.
I think the latter parsing ("idea about women") is correct, but that actually katsy's English translation (deriving from an exclusive interpretation relating to views of some males on sexual availability of women) is also correct.
The text that follows doesn't help at all because it switches to a whole new segment of information, and is non sequitur. I agree with you all that it's very ambiguous.
Ph_B (X)
France
Still unclear
16:21 Nov 21, 2019
Agree with Wolf: both readings are still possible. on peut parfois se faire des femmes: [when you harass women], you can get lucky and pull (some women will give up and do anything for it to stop) OR your behaviour is based on what women are thought of (generally/among your peer group/...). My hunch is that it's the 2nd one, but this needs to be clarified before it's translated unless there's an English translation that is as ambiguous as the source text.
What idée refers to: what men who harass women think of women (why such men harass women in the first place), or how women are thought of in general (why such men think they can get away with it).
If the surrounding text helps to clarify this, please do share...
Le plus souvent ce sont les femmes qui sont victimes du harcèlement sexuel. Quand les harceleurs agissent sur des femmes, ils comptent sur l’idée qu’on peut parfois se faire des femmes.
It means "the idea people sometimes have of women". I would expect this idea to be explained in the next sentence or sentences. As Wolf requested earlier, please could we have some more of the French.
Thanks for all the responses and sorry for not including the full sentence in the context. Here it is: "Quand les harceleurs agissent sur des femmes, ils comptent sur l’idée qu’on peut parfois se faire des femmes."
1. That men view women as objects (l'idée qu'on peut se faire des femmes) 2. That women are there for the taking (l'idée qu'on peut se faire des femmes) 3. That she might give in if you persist, so try your luck (a bit of both)
I'm leaning towards the first, but without at least a full sentence, and preferably some surrounding text, we're just guessing.