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French to English translations [PRO] Law/Patents - Law (general) / Luxembourg court decision
French term or phrase:traiter de manière loyale
Bonjour à tous, Donc, je traduire l'arrête une Cour luxembourgeoise portant sur une affaire de violence domestique. En gros, le mari pensait que la femme le trompait et l'a tabassé. Plusieurs fois dans le document je vois la phrase qui suit:
"X (l'épouse) a déclaré que Y (l'époux) l'a menacée de mort si elle ne le traitait pas de manière loyale."
Vu le context, j'ai envie de traduire "ne le tratait pas de manière loyale" par "if she was unfaithful (ou bien "not faithful") to him", mais je n'ai jamais vu cette expréssion "traiter de manière loyale" pour parler de fidelité entre conjoints et j'aimerais avoir l'avis d'autres gens. A votre à vis, est-ce bien le sens, ou bien est-ce qu'elle veut dire plutôt "if she did not treat him fairly" ? Merci d'avance. Jeff
Explanation: I don't believe that the phrase "traiter de manière loyale" means the same as "être loyale à son mari". It seems far broader. Men threaten to or actually kill their wives or girlfriends for reasons other than sexual infidelity and a controlling narcissist can consider slights far short of infidelity as disloyalty that merits death. Examples of such slights might be supporting another person in an argument, being friendly towards (or even just speaking to) someone the husband considered an enemy, refusing to lie or commit perjury for the husband. The biggest perceived disloyalty might be threatening to leave.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/31/men-kill-wom... "According to the Domestic Violence Prevention Centre, women attempt to leave an abusive relationship on average between five and seven times before successfully and permanently doing so, and the time when a woman leaves her abusive partner is also when she is in most danger of being harmed."
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 4 hrs (2019-01-19 15:38:56 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Alternative: act with loyalty towards him.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 5 hrs (2019-01-19 16:44:38 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
@Asker Yes, loyalty can include fulfilling the duty of being a charming hostess or companion on a business trip, cooking cordon bleu dinners etc., generally supporting to the husband's status.
Thanks very much for your help, BD ! I think your response is the way I can least commit to any specific kind of "loyalty"(fidelity, etc.). 4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer
Betrayal is used to mean infidelity, but it isn't necessarily limited to that. It could mean that she had failed him in some other way. Indeed, betrayal is by definition disloyalty.
I agree in principle that loyalty is broader than sexual fidelity, but I am still inclined to think that the real issue here is the latter (as it often is in cases of domestic violence): Jeff tells us that "le mari pensait que la femme le trompait et l'a tabassé".
I think that betrayal is often used to mean sexual infidelity. Loyalty is much broader and need not include any idea of sexual infidelity. In the light of the additional information supplied by the Asker, it is possible, even probable that this man would find it unthinkable that his wife would be sexually unfaithful to him. The higher the level of controlling behaviour, the lower the threshold of what is considered disloyal.
So I think the most "neutral" expression is needed here. The problem with "faithful", although a perfectly valid expression, is that it implies sexual fidelity. Unless asker knows for sure that was meant here, a much more "neutral" word is needed, Think Thesaurus style, asker......
@Charles: I like this option. As this is for a "certified" translation, I have to translate "exactly what was said" as completely and as precisely as possible. I cannot take liberties or interpret what I "think" the person meant. Thanks for your opinion.
I get the impression that "traiter de manière loyale" is the way the husband expressed it, not the way the wife sees it; if she used that expression, she was probably reporting what her husband said. And from his point of view, although being sexually faithful/unfaithful was presumably what he was referring to, he may well have conceptualised it as a matter of loyalty or betrayal. Maybe "si elle ne le traitait pas de manière loyale" should be translated as "if she betrayed him"? Or indeed "if she was disloyal to him". In other words, the issue is not what was actually going on but how the husband saw it and expressed it.
Being faithful and being loyal are not the same thing, but I can well imagine a husband thinking that his wife owed him loyalty, as servants owe loyalty to their masters (to put it a bit tendentiously).
Ph_B (X)
France
Carol, thanks
13:42 Jan 19, 2019
I was adding another possibility to my earlier comment, just as yours reached me.
this is about infidelity (unfaithfulness); the word "loyal/loyalty" just doesn't work in this very particular context in English. You can be loyal to your country, sovereign, political party, or even perhaps (at a push) to your spouse - but not in this context
I agree that fairness has no relevance here, it’s referring to faithfulness (more than loyalty) to spouse, especially given his threat to kill her if she isn’t.
Ph_B (X)
France
True
12:59 Jan 19, 2019
Would "if she wasn't loyal to him" still sound too wordy? Also, your question says it's a document written by the Court and the sentence you quote looks like reported speech. Could it be the Court using legal terminolgy and not actually quoting the wife? Might explain why these words sound odd coming from her.
I don't see how "fairness" is relevant at all. Would't the correct term be on the lines of "show respect" "remain faithful" etc ? Even if this is a specific way to phrase the idea, there can't surely be more than a couple of quite similar options to choose from.
Yes, but remember this is an excerpt from a statement made by a layman (the wife) to police, shaken and scared in the heated aftermath of (allegedly) being beaten by her husband. I would think she would use more "Everyday" language and not be quoting legal texts. Thanks for your opinion though. I do like your suggestion and will consider it.
Ph_B (X)
France
manière loyale
12:39 Jan 19, 2019
There is such a thing as devoir de loyauté entre époux. Could a literal translation work here, e.g. "behave with loyalty towards"?
I guess maybe I have translated "concurrence déloyale" as "unfair competitiion" so many times that I tend to think of "loyale" as being equivalent to "fair", which is also one of it's meanings. I just found the phrasing "traiter de manière loyale" very strange and didn't understand that if they meant "unfaithful" why wouldn't they say "infidèle" or Something. I mean seriously, would it seem natural for a woman to say "Je traite mon mari de manière loyale" ? No, she would say "Je suis fidèle à mon mari". Thanks for your opinion.
I don't think "fairness" comes into it! Surely it's just a matter of her being unfaithful - or otherwise...? It seems he threatened to kill her if she was unfaithful to him
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
2 hrs confidence: peer agreement (net): -1
remain faithful
Explanation: I agree with your initial thoughts and Carol's.
I really can't see "loyal" being translated as anything other than "faithful" in this context.
I agree that the use of the word is rather strange and would also expect "fidèle" here but maybe it is linked to the idea of being steadfast and devoted to the husband=loyal or constant in that way.
However, I still think it's more about her straying from him, being "unfaithful", given his threat to kill her.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 2 hrs (2019-01-19 13:06:18 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
in regards to "devoir de loyauté entre époux" yes, that may have influenced the choice of the word "loyal" here but I don't believe a literal translation would work in English
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 2 hrs (2019-01-19 13:10:06 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
In English a woman might say something like "he expects me to stay devoted to him (alone) and look at no one else and he threatened to kill me if I was at all unfaithful..."
Yvonne Gallagher Ireland Local time: 16:23 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 102
Notes to answerer
Asker: Merci de votre aide, Yvonne.
4 hrs confidence: peer agreement (net): +2
behave loyally towards [him]
Explanation: I don't believe that the phrase "traiter de manière loyale" means the same as "être loyale à son mari". It seems far broader. Men threaten to or actually kill their wives or girlfriends for reasons other than sexual infidelity and a controlling narcissist can consider slights far short of infidelity as disloyalty that merits death. Examples of such slights might be supporting another person in an argument, being friendly towards (or even just speaking to) someone the husband considered an enemy, refusing to lie or commit perjury for the husband. The biggest perceived disloyalty might be threatening to leave.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/31/men-kill-wom... "According to the Domestic Violence Prevention Centre, women attempt to leave an abusive relationship on average between five and seven times before successfully and permanently doing so, and the time when a woman leaves her abusive partner is also when she is in most danger of being harmed."
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 4 hrs (2019-01-19 15:38:56 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Alternative: act with loyalty towards him.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 5 hrs (2019-01-19 16:44:38 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
@Asker Yes, loyalty can include fulfilling the duty of being a charming hostess or companion on a business trip, cooking cordon bleu dinners etc., generally supporting to the husband's status.
B D Finch France Local time: 17:23 Works in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 509
Grading comment
Thanks very much for your help, BD ! I think your response is the way I can least commit to any specific kind of "loyalty"(fidelity, etc.).
Notes to answerer
Asker: I agree with your analysis B.D. The police report states that after beating her, the husband refused to take her to the hospital and said that she could hide her injuries with make-up and he was going to force her to accopany him on a business trip she had refused to go on. So, to my understanding his idea of being "loyal" also includes not denouncing him, hiding the bruises he had given her and Following her where ever he commanded.
peer agreement (net): -1
