lettres de forme

English translation: textura script / textura type

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:lettres de forme
English translation:textura script / textura type
Entered by: B D Finch

16:57 Aug 5, 2017
French to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting / illuminated manuscripts
French term or phrase: lettres de forme
"Ces deux manuscrits ont beaucoup de traits communs : même nombre de cahiers, mêmes justification, réglure et mise en page, même écriture en lettres de forme ou libraria gothica formata par la main d’un même copiste"

I have translated "libraria gothica formata" as "Gothic book hand script", for which I have a couple of good sources. I am not sure whether to translate "lettres de forme" simply as "Gothic script".

"lettres de forme, caractères gothiques des manuscrits du XIVe siècle"
http://www.notrefamille.com/dictionnaire/definition/lettre/#...
B D Finch
France
Local time: 13:21
textura type
Explanation:
You'll need to scroll down a bit: http://ndl.go.jp/incunabula/e/chapter2/index.html

http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780198606...



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 mins (2017-08-05 17:18:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Here's the French and English terminology together again: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eLSoDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT178&lp...

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CdbH9hQSiHAC&pg=PA33&lpg...



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 42 mins (2017-08-05 17:39:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

If these manuscripts are earlier than print, then 'textura script' seems the way to go - see my 2nd ref.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 23 hrs (2017-08-06 16:51:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Ok, though print was developed in c. 1450 by Gutenberg. Anyway, I hope ' textura script' answers your problem.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day17 hrs (2017-08-07 10:22:39 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

If that's the case, then there is no issue.
Selected response from:

Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:21
Grading comment
Thanks again Helen.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +3textura type
Helen Shiner
3letter forms (or "lettres de forme")
Christopher Crockett


Discussion entries: 8





  

Answers


17 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +3
textura type


Explanation:
You'll need to scroll down a bit: http://ndl.go.jp/incunabula/e/chapter2/index.html

http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780198606...



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 mins (2017-08-05 17:18:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Here's the French and English terminology together again: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eLSoDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT178&lp...

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CdbH9hQSiHAC&pg=PA33&lpg...



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 42 mins (2017-08-05 17:39:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

If these manuscripts are earlier than print, then 'textura script' seems the way to go - see my 2nd ref.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 23 hrs (2017-08-06 16:51:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Ok, though print was developed in c. 1450 by Gutenberg. Anyway, I hope ' textura script' answers your problem.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day17 hrs (2017-08-07 10:22:39 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

If that's the case, then there is no issue.

Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:21
Meets criteria
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 348
Grading comment
Thanks again Helen.
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks Helen! It's early 15th century.

Asker: Thanks, "textura script" seems right. Thanks also for the resource on incunabula. This is about various manuscripts produced before 1420


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  philgoddard: Also known as book hand. Not "type", though.//They're manuscripts by a copyist.
1 min
  -> Thanks, Phil, but the sources say otherwise./Textura script if earlier than print. But not clear from info given.

agree  Yvonne Gallagher
32 mins
  -> Thanks, Gallagy

neutral  Christopher Crockett: I definitely would not use the work "type"; early printing type (fonts) were based on contemporary book hands (scripts), not the other way around.
1 day 20 hrs
  -> Unfortunately, we were not given proper context until pretty late on, but as you see I have suggested textura script, and one of my sources confirms this.

agree  Charles Davis: Very late to this party, but textura is right. It's a Gothic script, but not the only kind, so that's no specific enough. (But definitely "script", not "type".)
2 days 5 hrs
  -> Thanks, Charles.
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

1 day 21 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
letter forms (or "lettres de forme")


Explanation:
"These two manuscripts share many common traits: same number of folios, same justification of the lines of text, regularity and page format, same letter forms --a later Gothic book hand which is the work of the same scribe."

As Phil has noted, "libraria gothica formata" is simply the Latin expression for a any genre of "Gothic" book hand (and, I assume, would be applicable to most mss. from the early 13th c. on).

Your "Gothic book hand script" is o.k., but redundant (a "book hand" being a "script"); and the source you found at

http://dictionnaire.sensagent.leparisien.fr/LETTRES/fr-fr/

suggests that this "lettres de forme" is simply the formal name (in French at least) for "caractères gothiques des manuscrits du XIVe siècle," which is what we've got here.

As I said, this is definitely not my field --and a damned complicated one it is.

It *may* be that "lettres de forme" is the technical name within the field for this specific form of "Gothic book hand" --in which case you should leave it, putting it in quotes, with the explanation following immediately.

But I've never seen it before (as opposed to, say, "bastarda" which is also a technical term for a specific form of late medieval script), so, lacking any English source which translates it with an English equivalent, I'd say translate it as "letter forms" with the specific clarification immediately following.

Here's something on that "bastarda" script (Fr. "lettre bâtarde"), a term which is in common usage among palaeographers of any language:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarda

But there is no wikipedia entry (even in the French wiki) for "lettres de form" --and my best guess is that that phrase is *not* a specific form of script in common usage (among palaeographers) like bastarda is.

I could be wrong.

Caveat emptor.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days28 mins (2017-08-07 17:25:54 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

@ B D

Yes, quires is better --though folio has the same sense, it is more often used in describing printed books; and réglure is certainly ruling (the spacing, layout and technique used for the "blind ruled" lines which the letters are written on).

I still like "page format" for the general layout of the page, never having seen "mise-en-page" in an English text before.

Of Helen's references, only one seems to applicable to mss. rather than printed books

http://tinyurl.com/yc4gjurj

and that one (which involves incunables, not mss.) seems to me to be somewhat somewhat ambiguous --though it does make a distinction between "textura" and "rotunda."

It definitely ain't my field.

Who's translating a text concerning mid-12th c. northern French sculpture?

Christopher Crockett
Local time: 08:21
Meets criteria
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 46
Notes to answerer
Asker: I believe that Helen's answer is correct, though I shall eventually get feedback from my client (a specialist publisher). However, as you have taken the trouble to translate the rest of the text that I posted, I should just make the correction that the proper translation of "cahiers" is "quires", not "folios" and of "réglure" is "ruling", not "regularity". Also, "mise en page" is not the page format, but the page layout and the term correctly used in English, in this context, is "mise-en-page".

Asker: In this case, there are several folios in a quire. "Page format" relates more to the dimensions of the page itself, while "page layout" is about what is set out on that page. "Mise-en-page" is the term used by the British Library.

Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)



Login or register (free and only takes a few minutes) to participate in this question.

You will also have access to many other tools and opportunities designed for those who have language-related jobs (or are passionate about them). Participation is free and the site has a strict confidentiality policy.

KudoZ™ translation help

The KudoZ network provides a framework for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short phrases.


See also:
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search