de forma no solidaria

English translation: severally and not jointly (as follows)

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Spanish term or phrase:de forma no solidaria
English translation:severally and not jointly (as follows)
Entered by: Charles Davis

17:44 Oct 1, 2015
Spanish to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law: Contract(s)
Spanish term or phrase: de forma no solidaria
Me podrían ayudar con esa frase? No estoy segura de su traducción.
Gracias!

Contexto:
Dicha suma será pagada de la siguiente **forma no solidaria**: a) el 50% es decir la suma de u$s xxx queda a cargo de la ASEGURADORA y es objeto del presente convenio...
Valeria Verona
Chile
Local time: 13:55
severally and not jointly (as follows)
Explanation:
It actually just means "not jointly", but you would customarily add "severally", which is implied. If the obligation is collective but not joint, it is necessarily several.

There's a lot of confusion on this, evident in previous questions. Some people think that "mancomunadamente" means "jointly": not so, it means "severally".

To be clear: joint liability means that two or more parties enter into an obligation together and that each party is liable up to the full amount of the total collective obligation. This is responsabilidad solidaria.
Several liability, on the other hand, means that the parties are liable for only their respective obligations. This is responsabilidad mancomunada. This is adequately explained in Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_and_several_liability

"obligación solidaria.
1. f. Der. obligación en que cada uno de los acreedores puede reclamar por sí la totalidad del crédito, o en que cada uno de los deudores está obligado a satisfacer la deuda entera, sin perjuicio del posterior abono o resarcimiento que el cobro o el plazo determinen entre el que lo realiza y sus cointeresados."
http://lema.rae.es/drae/?val=solidario

The last part, about the debtor who pays the whole debt sorting it out with his co-debtors, applies to joint and several liability, but that doesn't concern us here.

Conversely:
"mancomunar
2. tr. Der. Obligar a dos o más personas a pagar o ejecutar de mancomún algo, entre todas y por partes."
http://lema.rae.es/drae/?val=mancomunar

The important bit here is "y por partes": each paying his own part. "Entre todos" means they are all obliged, but it doesn't mean that any one of them is liable for the whole thing. Mancomunadamente does not mean jointly. This is the opposite of what you will find in several previous questions. The following answer gets it right:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_spanish/insurance/21922...

"Su crédito no será solidario sino mancomunado. Sólo podrá exigirse el pago a cada codeudor por la cuota parte de cada uno."
https://books.google.es/books?id=eKf8BuGvOokC&pg=PA542&lpg=P...

"responsabilidad mancomunada (several liability)
Para diferenciarla de la responsabilidad solidaria, se da este nombre a la que, en virtud de un contrato, corresponde a cada una de las partes afectadas, y en la cuantía preestablecida para cada una de ellas.
El responsable mancomunado responde por «su parte»; el solidario, «por todo»."
http://www.mapfre.es/wdiccionario/terminos/vertermino.shtml?...


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2015-10-01 21:47:12 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry to go on so long. I've laboured the point to try to set the record straight.

I forgot to add a couple of examples of the expression I'm proposing:

"such Transaction Expenses shall be deducted from the Representative Fund, and thereafter, shall be paid severally and not jointly by the Securityholders"
http://secfilings.nyse.com/filing.php?ipage=3338010&DSEQ=&SE...

"The Insurers will cause to be paid, severally and not jointly, in accordance with their several interests, as set forth in a separate letter agreement among them to be held by counsel for Continental Casualty, the sum of $35 million into the Escrow Account within ten (10) days after entry of the Preliminary Approval Order."
http://www.worldcomlitigation.com/courtdox/2005-03-18StipSet...
Selected response from:

Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 19:55
Grading comment
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +1severally and not jointly (as follows)
Charles Davis
3 +1non-jointly and non-severally
Adrian MM. (X)


Discussion entries: 5





  

Answers


1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
non-jointly and non-severally


Explanation:
unless contrasts with de forma no mancomunada = non-jointly.

el 50% es decir la suma de u$s xxx queda a cargo de la ASEGURADORA: e.g. the insurers do not split or share the liability for that sum.


    Reference: http://www.proz.com/?sp=gloss/term&id=3597972
Adrian MM. (X)
Local time: 19:55
Meets criteria
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 547

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Charles Davis: Non-jointly, certainly, but surely this is several liability: each liable for their own bit. No solidaria simply means not in solidum, doesn't it?
1 hr
  -> Rather - non-severally. De forma mancomunada is jointly. Difficult to nail, but 'not in solidum (form)' doesn't really work. My reading is a sin beneficio de excusion, orden ni discusion scenario, so accepting 'personal' (ins. co.?) & primary liability.

neutral  Billh: Charles is correct - technically this is several - these are complicated concepts which you need to research.// sorry you are simply wrong. you say 'De forma mancomunada is jointly' - it is NOT
2 hrs
  -> I have been for the last 40 years. You are assuming that the insurance company's liability is somehow split. //Mancomunado is listed as joint in every ES/EN legal dictionary written by lawyers and the ins. co. in the context is not liable with anyone.

agree  Adrian MM.: solidario is both joint and several vs. mancomunado which is joint-onyl : https://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish-to-english/law-general/61...
2588 days
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
severally and not jointly (as follows)


Explanation:
It actually just means "not jointly", but you would customarily add "severally", which is implied. If the obligation is collective but not joint, it is necessarily several.

There's a lot of confusion on this, evident in previous questions. Some people think that "mancomunadamente" means "jointly": not so, it means "severally".

To be clear: joint liability means that two or more parties enter into an obligation together and that each party is liable up to the full amount of the total collective obligation. This is responsabilidad solidaria.
Several liability, on the other hand, means that the parties are liable for only their respective obligations. This is responsabilidad mancomunada. This is adequately explained in Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_and_several_liability

"obligación solidaria.
1. f. Der. obligación en que cada uno de los acreedores puede reclamar por sí la totalidad del crédito, o en que cada uno de los deudores está obligado a satisfacer la deuda entera, sin perjuicio del posterior abono o resarcimiento que el cobro o el plazo determinen entre el que lo realiza y sus cointeresados."
http://lema.rae.es/drae/?val=solidario

The last part, about the debtor who pays the whole debt sorting it out with his co-debtors, applies to joint and several liability, but that doesn't concern us here.

Conversely:
"mancomunar
2. tr. Der. Obligar a dos o más personas a pagar o ejecutar de mancomún algo, entre todas y por partes."
http://lema.rae.es/drae/?val=mancomunar

The important bit here is "y por partes": each paying his own part. "Entre todos" means they are all obliged, but it doesn't mean that any one of them is liable for the whole thing. Mancomunadamente does not mean jointly. This is the opposite of what you will find in several previous questions. The following answer gets it right:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_spanish/insurance/21922...

"Su crédito no será solidario sino mancomunado. Sólo podrá exigirse el pago a cada codeudor por la cuota parte de cada uno."
https://books.google.es/books?id=eKf8BuGvOokC&pg=PA542&lpg=P...

"responsabilidad mancomunada (several liability)
Para diferenciarla de la responsabilidad solidaria, se da este nombre a la que, en virtud de un contrato, corresponde a cada una de las partes afectadas, y en la cuantía preestablecida para cada una de ellas.
El responsable mancomunado responde por «su parte»; el solidario, «por todo»."
http://www.mapfre.es/wdiccionario/terminos/vertermino.shtml?...


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2015-10-01 21:47:12 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry to go on so long. I've laboured the point to try to set the record straight.

I forgot to add a couple of examples of the expression I'm proposing:

"such Transaction Expenses shall be deducted from the Representative Fund, and thereafter, shall be paid severally and not jointly by the Securityholders"
http://secfilings.nyse.com/filing.php?ipage=3338010&DSEQ=&SE...

"The Insurers will cause to be paid, severally and not jointly, in accordance with their several interests, as set forth in a separate letter agreement among them to be held by counsel for Continental Casualty, the sum of $35 million into the Escrow Account within ten (10) days after entry of the Preliminary Approval Order."
http://www.worldcomlitigation.com/courtdox/2005-03-18StipSet...

Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 19:55
Does not meet criteria
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 451
Grading comment
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Adrian MM. (X): A good analysis. But you've split the liability artificially when, from my reading, the insurance company has to cough up 50% and is taken out of shared liability altogether. The 50% balance might be split severally and non-jointly between the tortfeasors
1 hr
  -> Thanks! There is more than one possible scenario.

agree  Billh: from the limited context this would be correct
10 hrs
  -> Thanks, Bill :)

agree  Álvaro Espantaleón Moreno: Correct
2 days 23 hrs
  -> Thanks, Álvaro :)

disagree  Adrian MM.: solidario is both joint and several : https://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish-to-english/law-general/61...
2587 days
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