gros de Tours moiré

English translation: gros-de-Tours (horizontally-ribbed) mirror moiré

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:un gros de Tours moiré
English translation:gros-de-Tours (horizontally-ribbed) mirror moiré
Entered by: Yvonne Gallagher

13:42 Sep 10, 2015
French to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Textiles / Clothing / Fashion / 19th century Religious vestment fabric
French term or phrase: gros de Tours moiré
tissu de fond est....

This is the background fabric of a 19th century (French) chasuble

Not that many Google hits. I found pictures of the fabric in question in these links and the "moiré" is not a problem (or Tours for that matter) but unsure how best to deal with the "GROS"! Ideas please! TIA

http://www.interencheres.com/fr/meubles-objets-art/art-sacre...

http://www.art-richelieu.fr/html/fiche.jsp?id=1941382&np=21&...


This is in English as well but I doubt very much that gros="wholesale"

http://www.art.com/products/p8112426044-sa-i5197280/mitre-en...
Yvonne Gallagher
Ireland
Local time: 15:43
moire grosgrain, in moiré miroir
Explanation:
"Gros de Tours" is one of the terms for what is called grosgrain in English:

"When a combination of fibers was used, the end result was sometimes given the name grogram, silk mohair, gros de Tours or gros de Napels."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grosgrain

See also e.g.
https://books.google.es/books?id=gbIsJ2tZJS4C&pg=PA125&lpg=P...

When moiré is used in English it normally has no accent.

"Moire grosgrain" is reasonably common:
https://www.google.es/search?num=100&site=&source=hp&q="moir...

For moiré miroir the French term seems to be used. That being so, I think the accent on moiré should be retained here, and I would put it in italics.

"Moiré Miroir — The making of this moire differs from the others in that two richly corded fabrics are woven together, one above the other. They moired without folding. This process gives a rich, velvety watered effect when the pieces are separated."
http://world4.eu/fabric-terms-dictionary/#8211_M_8211

"Moire Miroir. A designation for two corded fabrics woven as one, bound together only by occasional threads ; afterwards moired and separated resulting in a soft, velvety watered face. "
https://archive.org/stream/dictionaryofsilk00amer/dictionary...

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Note added at 30 mins (2015-09-10 14:12:49 GMT)
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The alternative, it seems to me, is actually to leave "gros de Tours" as is, given that all these different "gros" are very similar kinds of grosgrain. That way you could keep the specificity; "grosgrain" is a more generic term. From my last source:

"Gros de Tours. Resembling taffetas, the difference being that, instead of one, two or more picks are inserted in the same shed or opening of the warp threads, forming a fine ribbed surface. A sublimated grosgrain.
[...]
Grosgrain. From gros (coarse or large) and grain (kernel). A ribbed fabric with heavy thread running crosswise. Classed with the epingles. Gros de Londres, Gros de Naples, Gros de Columbia, Gros de Paris, and all the other numerous '"Gros" are of the same general character."

I suspect this is what might be done in a proper costume description. So you would end up with something practically the same as the ST:

"Moire gros de Tours in moiré miroir".

People don't seem to talk about "Tours grosgrain" so I wouldn't go that way.

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Note added at 1 hr (2015-09-10 14:42:29 GMT)
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I agree; I would do that. The ref. may be Japanese but it's very well written and looks authentic.
Selected response from:

Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 16:43
Grading comment
Many thanks Charles...and all other contributors
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +1moire grosgrain, in moiré miroir
Charles Davis
Summary of reference entries provided
GROS-DE-TOURS, & GROS-DE-NAPLES
patrickfor
gros grain de Tours
Nikki Scott-Despaigne

Discussion entries: 10





  

Answers


13 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
gros de Tours moiré, en moiré miroir
moire grosgrain, in moiré miroir


Explanation:
"Gros de Tours" is one of the terms for what is called grosgrain in English:

"When a combination of fibers was used, the end result was sometimes given the name grogram, silk mohair, gros de Tours or gros de Napels."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grosgrain

See also e.g.
https://books.google.es/books?id=gbIsJ2tZJS4C&pg=PA125&lpg=P...

When moiré is used in English it normally has no accent.

"Moire grosgrain" is reasonably common:
https://www.google.es/search?num=100&site=&source=hp&q="moir...

For moiré miroir the French term seems to be used. That being so, I think the accent on moiré should be retained here, and I would put it in italics.

"Moiré Miroir — The making of this moire differs from the others in that two richly corded fabrics are woven together, one above the other. They moired without folding. This process gives a rich, velvety watered effect when the pieces are separated."
http://world4.eu/fabric-terms-dictionary/#8211_M_8211

"Moire Miroir. A designation for two corded fabrics woven as one, bound together only by occasional threads ; afterwards moired and separated resulting in a soft, velvety watered face. "
https://archive.org/stream/dictionaryofsilk00amer/dictionary...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 30 mins (2015-09-10 14:12:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The alternative, it seems to me, is actually to leave "gros de Tours" as is, given that all these different "gros" are very similar kinds of grosgrain. That way you could keep the specificity; "grosgrain" is a more generic term. From my last source:

"Gros de Tours. Resembling taffetas, the difference being that, instead of one, two or more picks are inserted in the same shed or opening of the warp threads, forming a fine ribbed surface. A sublimated grosgrain.
[...]
Grosgrain. From gros (coarse or large) and grain (kernel). A ribbed fabric with heavy thread running crosswise. Classed with the epingles. Gros de Londres, Gros de Naples, Gros de Columbia, Gros de Paris, and all the other numerous '"Gros" are of the same general character."

I suspect this is what might be done in a proper costume description. So you would end up with something practically the same as the ST:

"Moire gros de Tours in moiré miroir".

People don't seem to talk about "Tours grosgrain" so I wouldn't go that way.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2015-09-10 14:42:29 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I agree; I would do that. The ref. may be Japanese but it's very well written and looks authentic.

Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 16:43
Meets criteria
Works in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 28
Grading comment
Many thanks Charles...and all other contributors
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks Charles, yes, from Phil's link I was thinking it might be "grosgrain". Sorry, meant to bracket last bit as had already understood moiré mrroir

Asker: it's for a Regional Inventory so want to get it right. Here is another example I found with "gros-de-Tours moiré" left in French, so maybe that is the way to go. http://www.kci.or.jp/archives/digital_archives/detail_278_e.html


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  philgoddard: Based on your first reference, gros de Tours is a type of grosgrain.
20 mins
  -> Yes it is. I think the generic "grosgrain" could be used for it. But certainly an alternative is to leave it in French, as I suggested in my added note (about a minute before you independently suggested it yourself).

agree  Nikki Scott-Despaigne: Leave it in the French, in italics. // I live in Tours and that I am a Sunday seamstress...so had to check it out! ;-)
6 hrs
  -> Thanks, Nikki! That seems to be the consensus.
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Reference comments


14 mins
Reference: GROS-DE-TOURS, & GROS-DE-NAPLES

Reference information:
GROS-DE-TOURS, & GROS-DE-NAPLES, s. m. (Manufacture en soie.) étoffe de soie, dont la chaine & la trame sont plus fortes qu’au taffetas. La différence du gros-de-Tours & du gros-de-Naples consiste en ce que la trame & la chaine de celui-ci sont encore plus fortes qu’au gros-de-Tours, ce qui lui donne un grain plus saillant. Il y en a d’unis, de rayés, de façonnés, de brochés en soie, & en dorure. Ceux-ci ne different du taffetas, qu’en ce qu’au lieu de deux coups de navette qu’on passe au taffetas entre les lacs broches, on n’en passe qu’un ici ; mais en revanche la trame en doit être d’autant plus grosse, n’y ayant qu’une duie ou un croisé entre les brochés, au lieu qu’il y en a deux au taffetas.

https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/L’Encyclopédie/1re_édition/GR...

patrickfor
France
Does not meet criteria
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench
Note to reference poster
Asker: Merci Patrick

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6 hrs
Reference: gros grain de Tours

Reference information:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gros de tours

Word Origin
noun
1.
a ribbed silk fabric made with a two- or three-ply warp interlaced with organzine and tram filling.
Origin of gros de Tours Expand
1790-18001790-1800; < French: literally, Tours gross; cf. grosgrain


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/grosgrain

Word Origin
noun
1.
a heavy, corded ribbon or cloth of silk or rayon.
Origin of grosgrain Expand
French
1865-18701865-70; < French gros grain large grain
Related forms Expand
grosgrained, adjective

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Note added at 6 hrs (2015-09-10 20:28:25 GMT)
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http://www.ebay.com/gds/Your-Guide-to-Buying-Grosgrain-Ribbo...

What is Grosgrain Ribbon?
Grosgrain is a type of textile with narrow ribbing and a tight weave, which features a ridged texture. The fabric is often sturdy, and it is mostly used to make trim and ribbons. Buyers can purchase grosgrain ribbon in a wide variety of colours. The fabric is sold either by the length or in whole spools. The grosgrain fabric is commonly made from silk, wool, or a combination of fibres such as wool and silk or mohair and silk. Nylon and synthetic fibres can also be used for producing grosgrain ribbon. Besides being used in the fashion industry, grosgrain ribbon is also employed for gift-wrapping, bookbinding, and other craft related projects.

Grosgrain ribbon often has a slightly glossy look, and it can be striped or solid. Other more sophisticated patterns come in complementary colours such as dots and diamonds. When working with grosgrain ribbon, users should pay attention to hemming in order to prevent fraying. Moreover, grosgrain ribbon tends to show all marks and pin holes, so buyers should also pay attention to this aspect when handling the fabric.

Brief History of Grosgrain Fabric
Grosgrain fabric started to be used for garments in the seventeenth century and it quickly became a more affordable alternative for wool and fine-woven silk. Some of the most common garments for which this type of fabric was employed included jackets, waistcoats, sleeves, petticoats, jerking, and more. The fabric began to be defined as grosgrain ribbon in the first decades of the twentieth century. One of the most common contemporary uses of grosgrain ribbon is in the hems of different pieces of clothing such as T-shirts, polo shirts, and underwear.


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Note added at 6 hrs (2015-09-10 20:32:00 GMT)
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http://www.weddingshoppeinc.com/term/grosgrain-fabric

Grosgrain is a plain weave corded fabric, with heavier cords than in poplin but lighter than in faille. Grosgrain has a very dull appearance with little luster, however it is very strong. It is a firm, close-woven, fine-corded fabric. While Grosgrain fabric is generally black, it can be many different colors, and grosgrain ribbon comes in a large variety of colors and patterns.

Throughout the 17th century grosgrain fabric was used as the fabric body (corpus) for many garments, including waistcoats, jackets, petticoats, beeches, sleeves, jerkins and many other items of clothing, as a cheaper alternative for the lower socio-economic demographic than fine-woven silk or wool. Factories in America started to produce grosgrain silk in the late 19th century.

Throughout the 1920s the term seems to have remained true to original definition as a garment fabric. However, circa 1920s it fell out of favor as a garment fabric and was defined identical to contemporary terminology as a grosgrain ribbon. While grosgrain fabric is almost always black, grosgrain ribbon comes in a large variety of colors and printed patterns.

The most common contemporary use of ribbed grosgrain is in hems where it may be elasticized or not, especially in polo shirts, t-shirts and underwear.

Grosgrain that does have some luster is a very popular fabric especially for ribbons, which are used to ornament and decorate clothing.

As grosgrain has less luster than burnished silk or satin it is very popular with and common in evening wear because it is seen as less "flashy", though silk and satin can commonly be found on day wear. Despite the fact grosgrain may actually be made of silk or satin, it is often erroneously referred to as a separate fabric.

You will often find grosgrain fabric in the form of wedding sashes to accent your wedding gown.


http://vintagefashionguild.org/horizontally-ribbed-fabrics/

http://vintagefashionguild.org/fabric-resource/grosgrain/

Best known in ribbon width, grosgrain may also be fabric. It shares with other horizontally-ribbed fabrics a plain weave with heavier weft yarns and finer and more plentiful warp yarns. As compared to faille, the ribs are rounder. The warp is characteristically silk or rayon with the weft being cotton, sometimes silk.

The name comes from the French gros (coarse or large) and grain (grain or texture).

Uses: Ribbon for trim, hatbands; fabric for dresses, skirts, spring coats


http://vintagefashionguild.org/fabric-resource/moire/

Looking like a woodgrain pattern, or a watermark in paper, moiré is a French word meaning “watered.” It can be achieved in a variety of ways, including engraved rollers, weaving, and printing. Most characteristically, moiré uses a horizontally ribbed fabric—most often taffeta or faille—and the design is pressed into the fabric and chemically set for durability. Without this setting treatment, moisture can destroy the pattern.

The present meaning of moiré was first used in the 18th century when it was achieved by folding a horizontally ribbed fabric lengthwise and pressing. The ribs that didn’t align were flattened, resulting in the characteristic pattern on both sides of the fold. This is now called moiré antique.

Moiré is a pattern, not a fabric, but in its most characteristic form it is achieved on silk, acetate, rayon, nylon or polyester taffeta or faille. It is sometimes called watered silk.

Uses: Dresses, trims, household decorations


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Note added at 20 hrs (2015-09-11 10:01:52 GMT)
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Yes, many of the examples concern ribbon, one of the common contemporary meanings although obviosuly not the only one. My sorces do make it clear it is fabric too.

However, I think you have little choice but to go with the French, particularly as it is so specific "gros de Tours" etc. I think one woud no more alter that than one would "de Nîmes", "chambray" (just up the road from Tours, well part of the agglo, in fact) or even a "grand cru" were this wine. ;-)


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Note added at 3 days3 hrs (2015-09-13 16:50:49 GMT) Post-grading
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Post-grading comment.
I see in the header that you have considered use of "horizontal rib". Anything indicating position needs to be clear and as a buyer of fabric, I can say that "horizontal" for a rib is not an effective explanation as it could be horizontal in relation to anything. It might be better to use the terms "warp/weft" in this context. In your context, I suppose that means "warp".

See this source :

https://books.google.fr/books?id=LTYfAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA273&lpg=P...

from the Fairchild Books Dictionary of Textiles on Google Books, where gros de Tours is described as:

"a plain-weave, cross-ribbed French fabric made of silk or other fiber. The fabric resembles tafeta but the ribs are formed by two or more picks instead of one producing a fine-ribbed surface. The warp is 2- or 3-ply yarn. Also called amoer in many parts of Italy. ..."

Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Meets criteria
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 48
Note to reference poster
Asker: Thanks Nikki! I am definitely staying well away from using "grosgrain" here (and it's not ribbon at all in this context). I think it would give the wrong idea using that word in English as this fabric is certainly not "ridged", "coarse" or has "little luster" but is the very opposite. Moiré doesn't need explaining as anyone with any interest in fabric would know that...(And I made a top for myself in silk moire when I was about 19, many moons ago but still recalled, because I had to handstitch it all as I couldn't adjust my sewing machine tension for the fine fabric:-)

Asker: Yep, have stuck with the French. Thanks again.

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