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French to English translations [PRO] Business/Commerce (general)
French term or phrase:pognassent
This is a Canadian French term that I'm not quite able to grasp the meaning of. Any French Canadian experts here?
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au niveau des ventes, des objectifs peu réalisables, flous ( les données changent trop souvent), le Plan Boni des ventes est diminuée à toutes les années. Quand ce n'est pas les comptables qui pognasssent les chiffres, ce sont les objectifs qui nous sont descendus qui n'ont pas de sens. Au niveau de ma rémunération pour l'année 2014, il y a eut un écart de 27,428 $ entre la cible et le réel et cela devrait être pire pour 2015. Ce n'est pas très encourageant. Le travail des vendeurs est rendu tellement complexe maintenant (relation client, interaction avec tous les intervenants internes, la gouvernance (charge administrative)) que la rémunération s'y rattachant ne reflète pas la réalité du marché. Aussi, il y a eut trop de coupures de personnel dans les groupes gravitant autour de ventes et par ricochet les clients, les ventes sont rendu débordées, non pas dans le sens de relation client mais plutôt comme homme/femme orchestre. C'est rendu qu'il faut tout faire, la compagnie nous impose un énorme charge administrative, nous sommes plus souvent qu'autrement laissé à nous même et ce, avec peu de reconnaissance
Non: "pognes" dans le sens de "mains" n'est pas utilisé au Québec. En tout cas, je ne l'ai jamais entendu! "Pogner" (le verbe) = attraper (en courant après un enfant: je vais te pogner!), se faire prendre (il s'est fait pogner à piger dans la caisse) ou tripoter (il n'arrêtait pas de lui pogner les fesses) et il y a peut-être d'autre connotations qui m'échappent pour l'instant, mais bon, ce qui touche la question est déjà mentionné.
Well, I do hope that we shall all soon be getting somewhere on this issue. I would just like to add that "pogne" is a very familiar (and even possibly lower-graded) term for "hand" in Parisian French ("se laver les pognes" for instance). I do not know whether it is used in Quebec, but if so, that might confirm "manipulate" suggested by Charles (although on a more formal register!).
Ex.: les ventes ont lieu pendant la période X. Pour diverses raisons, on les comptabilise sur les périodes X et Y. Il n'y a pas nécessairement de fraude à ce faire, mais ça peut avoir une incidence sur le versement ou le calcul de la commission du vendeur. Celui-ci pourrait donc croire qu'on a "tripoté" les chiffres, mais ça ne veut pas nécessairement dire qu'il y a eu fraude en tant que telle.
Tout d'abord, "pognasser" s'utilise d'habitude à l'égard des vieux messieurs qui ont la main leste... tout comme à l'égard de jeunes hommes entreprenants. C'est la première fois que je vois ce verbe utilisé à l'égard des chiffres; on dirait plutôt "tripoter ou trafiquer les chiffres" i.e. les arranger pour qu'ils disent ce qu'on veut bien leur faire dire.
Il y a toujours quelque chose de malhonnête à "tripoter/trafiquer les chiffres" et dans ce sens, oui, ça confine à la fraude. MAIS dans le contexte, je suis d'accord avec Charles: il faut rester prudent. Le fait que le locuteur utilise un terme aussi peu usité peut être une façon d'atténuer son propos (ne serait-ce que pour ne pas se faire reprocher "d'accuser" les comptables de fraude). Dans les circonstances, je me rangerais du côté de Daryo: "messing with the numbers" me semble plus juste.
Thank you again for your comments. There is probably no questioning the fact that "to fiddle" is not used in American English (which I have just learned). But how colloquial is "pognasser"? Au secours, Germaine! And in my view, you are quite right in stressing the fact that the Internet can sometimes be extremely harmful to people just giving their honest opinion. I still believe that falsifying figures is far more blameable than just "fixing, arranging, handling" them, in law and in common use.
Perhaps my approach is coloured by the fact that my brother is a financial journalist and had libel law drummed into him at an early stage. You have to be extremely careful about the terms you use in anything that will be, or could be, published, and that includes posting on the Internet these days.
In my hypothetical scenario (which is obviously a bit far-fetched) I think "fiddle" would probably be construed as fraudulent, though I'm not a libel lawyer. It is colloquial, and so (I think), is pognasser, but my whole argument is that the range of dubious practices each term could reasonably be understood to embrace may not match, and unless one is sure it's better to play safe.
In any case, it seems to be agreed that "fiddle" is not suitable for the American target, so I wasn't referring to that term. I agree with you that "cook the books" is too broad (apart from other objections) and could be taken to refer to the company accounts as a whole.
Okay then, but why not agree that "to fiddle" may have a colloquial sense as well as meaning something strictly legal (as you pointed out). And "the figures" does not necessarily mean "the books" (as a whole) which would tie with Daryo's suggestion. Sales figures must of course be posted. I am waiting for Germaine's comment as to whether this might lead to prosecution in Quebec, which will be most helpful.
I'm very sorry to harp on about this, but let me illustrate why I think it's so important to be careful here.
Suppose this statement, in English, somehow finds its way onto the Internet, saying that the company accountants cook the books. I am one of the company accountants. The statement is defamatory. I could sue. And unless the person who made the statement can show that the books have indeed been cooked, the action should be successful.
It then transpires that in the original statement "pognassent" doesn't necessarily mean that the accountants enter false figures in the accounts, but merely that they manipulate or "mess around with" the figures in a way unfavourable to the salesmen, and experts on Canadian French agree that it is not an unequivocal accusation of fraud. So the author of the statement contests the action by saying that the statement was mistranslated. That puts the translator in an invidious position. And it will obviously not help to say, "well, I wasn't totally sure it meant that, but it sounds good and it's obviously something like that, so I put it".
Unlikely, maybe, but I think it focuses the issue.
Funnily enough, "messing around with the figures" occurred to me last night (honestly!) and I was thinking of suggesting it as an option this morning. On the same lines as "playing with", but better here, I think. And better than "cooking the books", because it covers any kind of manipulation, whether technically fraudulent or not.
As to whether it refers specifically to their sales figures, maybe, but it's not really necessary to specify. Just say "the figures"; it works fine and applies to any figures, anything the accountants might have done that could have made their lives more difficult.
this is written from the viewpoint of salesmen, not from the viewpoint of company auditors, or someone from outside the company.
Salesmen couldn't care less about the company as a whole "fiddling / cooking the books" - [they are NOT going to moan about that, not in a year of Sundays];
the only figures they want to know about are their own sales and commissions - and what surely gets their attention is anyone indulging in "pognasser / poignasser / taponner" the recorded volumes of their own sales.
J'avais également pesé à "tripoter" et "tripatouiller" mais qui vont un peu loin dans la familiarité. Je pense qu'à ce stade il faudrait que vous nous indiquiez si au Québec le fait de "pognasser les chiffres" peut conduire au tribunal. Merci et tout sera beaucoup plus clair.
Audra deFalco (X)
United States
ASKER
12:38 May 8, 2015
I think that "play with the numbers" is just ambiguous enough though. I'll wait for an FC colleague though.
I do not really know now, after everything that has been said. As far as I can see, the most important point now is for a French Canadian translator to tell us whether "pognasser" is in fact dishonest, and could possibly lead to prosecution, or just a hint about how some sly things might be done. I cannot go any further.
Audra deFalco (X)
United States
ASKER
12:13 May 8, 2015
I think a good compromise could be "play with the numbers" as it doesn't specifically imply illegal activity.
"A buzzword describing fraudulent activities performed by corporations in order to falsify their financial statements. Typically, cooking the books involves augmenting financial data to yield previously non-existent earnings." http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/cookthebooks.asp
It's illegal. There are rules. It goes beyond creative accounting.
I say it again: it is reckless, in my view, to allow the linguistic attractions of this colloquial expression to lead you to translate "poignasser les chiffres" as fraud unless you are sure it implies that. There are ways of playing with the figures that stop short of breaking the rules. Accountants do it all the time.
Just as there is legal but (arguably) unethical tax avoidance and illegal tax evasion, so there is legal creative accounting and illegal false accounting.
It doesn't sound so bad, but that's what it is. If accountants fiddle figures and are caught they are prosecuted and disbarred. Cooking the books is the same. It means entering figures that just do not correspond to the truth. Manipulation implies something on the legal side of the line, putting the most favourable possible gloss on the figures, though the effect may well be misleading to anyone but a skilled auditor.
My position is that unless someone very familiar with Quebec French tells me that "poignassent" refers here to fraudulent accounting, I would be reluctant to translate it that way.
If Audra is writing for a US audience, I wouldn't use the "fiddle the X" expression. AFAIK, we don't use that expression in US English. I had to look it up. According to this ref, it is chiefly British and does, indeed, imply falsification. 3 [with object] chiefly British Falsify (figures, data, or records), typically in order to gain money: everyone is fiddling their expenses http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_eng...
And along the same line of thought, how about "trafiquer", "arranger"? It depends on how far you wish to go qualifying something which is obviously dishonesty in some way.
Are you really sure that "fiddling" means something as blameworthy as actually "falsifying" figures? My feeling is that it may just stand for tricky things such as wrongly qualified or delayed postings, which are not to be recommended of course, but are not so bad (or uncommon, I fear... ).
In other words, it seems to mean fiddle with or manipulate (literally).
So it "poignasser les chiffres" would seem to be a metaphorical use of the verb.
I would be very tempted to read it as "fiddle the figures", because I get the sense that this is quite colloquial, but I'm not entirely sure it means that. The question is whether it refers to false accounting or to creative accounting; "fiddle", to my mind, would mean "falsify", whereas it may well simply mean that the accountants manipulate true figures to create a certain impression. I'd be inclined to err on the side of caution and put "manipulate". But maybe a Canadian colleague will tell us that it implies straight falsification, in which case "fiddle the figures" would be a good translation.
Charles Davis Spain Local time: 14:08 Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 36
Notes to answerer
Asker: Yes--using US English. I think "cook the books" is much more common in US English.