Numeral

English translation: (subclause or section) : Clauses 7, 8.1, 11, 12 and 21

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Spanish term or phrase:Numeral
English translation:(subclause or section) : Clauses 7, 8.1, 11, 12 and 21
Entered by: Charles Davis

10:24 Feb 14, 2015
Spanish to English translations [PRO]
Government / Politics / Human rights, EU immigrat
Spanish term or phrase: Numeral
The following sentence appears in a legal document from Mexico and refers to the clauses affected by a previous amendment agreement. I am uncertain how to translate 'numeral' and if those clauses mentioned afterwards would be sub clauses. I have included my attempt below- any suggestions would be very helpful

'Se modificaron las cláusulas séptima, octava, numeral 1, décima primera, décima segunda y vigésima primera'

'Clauses 7, 8, 1.11, 1.12 and 1.21 were amended'
Marta88
Ireland
(subclause or section) : Clauses 7, 8.1, 11, 12 and 21
Explanation:
Numeral here is the first subdivision of a clause, and that could reasonably be called a subclause. "Section" would be perfectly reasonable too, I think. These are words you might use if you need to refer to a "numeral" in this case. Or you could do as Helena was told to do and put "numeral", though I wouldn't. There is no hard and fast rule about it, but a sensible hierarchy of divisions in English is clause > subclause/section > paragraph > subparagraph. The great thing, if you have to refer specifically to one of them, is to have a scheme of terms that makes sense in English and apply it consistently.

Of course "numeral" really means a numbered (sub)section (1, 2, 3), just as "literal" means a (sub)section identified by a letter (a, b, c). Depending on how the original is organised, "numeral" could be called a paragraph or item in certain cases.

So "cláusula octava, numeral 1" means clause 8, subclause/section 1". But it's standard practice in Mexico to refer to "cláusula 8.1", or indeed to "subcláusula 8.1", in such cases, and this would be the clearest solution.

Where we do need to be careful is in correctly identifying which parts are being referred to here. The key is that clauses are identified with ordinal numbers in words and subclauses/sections by cardinal numbers in figures. That's how we can tell that "décima primera, décima segunda y vigésima primera" are clauses, not subclauses. So "las cláusulas séptima, octava, numeral 1, décima primera, décima segunda y vigésima primera" means:

cláusula séptima: clause 7
[cláusula] octava, numeral 1: clause 8.1
[cláusula] décima primera: clause 11
[cláusula] décima segunda: clause 12
[cláusula] vigésima primera: clause 21

In other words:

Clauses 7. 8.1, 11, 12 and 21.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2015-02-14 13:57:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I think Antonio's idea that "octava, numeral 1" means 8 and 8.1, on the grounds that there is a comma after "octava", can't be right. If they proposed to modify clause 8.1 and also other parts of clause 8, the other parts would be specified. The comma simply indicates that it is numeral 1 of clause 8, just as you might say "clause 8, section 1" in English. Nobody would assume you meant "clause 8 and clause 8 section 1". People sometimes put a comma between clause number and section number and sometimes don't, even in the same document.
Selected response from:

Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 14:23
Grading comment
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +2(subclause or section) : Clauses 7, 8.1, 11, 12 and 21
Charles Davis
4 +1Number
Henry Hinds
3 +1Clauses 7, 8, 8.1, 12 and 21
Antonio Tomás Lessa do Amaral


Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
(subclause or section) : Clauses 7, 8.1, 11, 12 and 21


Explanation:
Numeral here is the first subdivision of a clause, and that could reasonably be called a subclause. "Section" would be perfectly reasonable too, I think. These are words you might use if you need to refer to a "numeral" in this case. Or you could do as Helena was told to do and put "numeral", though I wouldn't. There is no hard and fast rule about it, but a sensible hierarchy of divisions in English is clause > subclause/section > paragraph > subparagraph. The great thing, if you have to refer specifically to one of them, is to have a scheme of terms that makes sense in English and apply it consistently.

Of course "numeral" really means a numbered (sub)section (1, 2, 3), just as "literal" means a (sub)section identified by a letter (a, b, c). Depending on how the original is organised, "numeral" could be called a paragraph or item in certain cases.

So "cláusula octava, numeral 1" means clause 8, subclause/section 1". But it's standard practice in Mexico to refer to "cláusula 8.1", or indeed to "subcláusula 8.1", in such cases, and this would be the clearest solution.

Where we do need to be careful is in correctly identifying which parts are being referred to here. The key is that clauses are identified with ordinal numbers in words and subclauses/sections by cardinal numbers in figures. That's how we can tell that "décima primera, décima segunda y vigésima primera" are clauses, not subclauses. So "las cláusulas séptima, octava, numeral 1, décima primera, décima segunda y vigésima primera" means:

cláusula séptima: clause 7
[cláusula] octava, numeral 1: clause 8.1
[cláusula] décima primera: clause 11
[cláusula] décima segunda: clause 12
[cláusula] vigésima primera: clause 21

In other words:

Clauses 7. 8.1, 11, 12 and 21.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2015-02-14 13:57:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I think Antonio's idea that "octava, numeral 1" means 8 and 8.1, on the grounds that there is a comma after "octava", can't be right. If they proposed to modify clause 8.1 and also other parts of clause 8, the other parts would be specified. The comma simply indicates that it is numeral 1 of clause 8, just as you might say "clause 8, section 1" in English. Nobody would assume you meant "clause 8 and clause 8 section 1". People sometimes put a comma between clause number and section number and sometimes don't, even in the same document.

Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 14:23
Works in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 276
Notes to answerer
Asker: Really helpful, thank you!


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Antonio Tomás Lessa do Amaral: Sorry, Sorry, I think the numbers are wrong; threre is a comma: octava, numeral 1
1 hr
  -> No. The comma simply indicates that it is numeral 1 of clause 8. Clause 8 plus clause 8.1 wouldn't make sense because 8.1 is included in 8, and in any case if they did mean that they would say "octava, octava numeral 1".

agree  Wendy Streitparth
4 hrs
  -> Thanks very much, Wendy!

agree  Billh: just to correct an unwarranted disagree
9 hrs
  -> Thanks, Bill

agree  Sandra Cirera-García
1 day 21 hrs
  -> Thanks, Sandra :)
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6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
Number


Explanation:
cláusulas séptima, octava, numeral 1, décima primera = clauses seven, eight number 1, eleven

I think the comma between "octava, numeral 1" does not belong; what it should indicate is part of that clause. If you have the clauses (CONTEXT), you can find out for sure.

In other contexts "numeral" often refers to "article" in Mexican legal documents.

Henry Hinds
United States
Local time: 07:23
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in SpanishSpanish
PRO pts in category: 661

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  omnia_vanitas
2937 days
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
Clauses 7, 8, 8.1, 12 and 21


Explanation:
That's how I'd see it


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs (2015-02-14 21:50:52 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

7, 8, 8.1, 11, 12 and 21 OF COURSE

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day23 hrs (2015-02-16 09:28:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

7, 8.1, 11, 12 and 21 OF COURSE

Antonio Tomás Lessa do Amaral
Native speaker of: Native in PortuguesePortuguese
PRO pts in category: 8

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  phoenix491: agree
41 mins
  -> Thank you

agree  philgoddard: You've got the numbers wrong, but the question was about "numeral", which is most easily translated as a decimal point.
5 hrs
  -> Thank you.

disagree  Billh: nope
10 hrs
  -> .
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