lofty

English translation: noble, but also highflown and pretentious, with a suggestion of pomposity and self-importance

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
English term or phrase:lofty
Selected answer:noble, but also highflown and pretentious, with a suggestion of pomposity and self-importance
Entered by: Charles Davis

12:02 Jul 30, 2014
English language (monolingual) [PRO]
Art/Literary - Poetry & Literature
English term or phrase: lofty
Hi,
I am not so sure about the meaning of “lofty” in the passage below (at the beginning of the second section)...
Might it mean “too ambitious” in this context?
Thanks in advance for any hint!


When we bring our individual skills and passion and knowledge for the benefit of the larger whole, we are maximizing our chances of solving the world’s practical and moral problems. I say “moral” here because it is a moral imperative to find a way to work together to solve our collective challenges. We share the same air, the same water, the same home, our planet Earth. A good planet is hard to find, so let’s collectively take care of this one now. It is time to find a new identity to face these crucial times together.

As an adolescent these may seem like * lofty * ideas, I know. They may even seem irrelevant. I say them as we get ready to say goodbye, because I believe so deeply that our individual needs for meaning and belonging in order to feel happy and fulfilled in life can actually be satisfied by expanding the way we define the self.
haribert
Local time: 22:58
Noble, but also highflown and pretentious, with a suggestion of pomposity and self-importance
Explanation:
I'm sorry, but with the partial exception of El oso, nobody has so far expressed the meaning of this as I understand it.

There is no doubt, to my mind, that "lofty" carries negative connotations here (not entirely negative, but still negative).

1. Let's first consider the contextual clues. "Lofty", whatever it means, represents not the author's view of the ideas in the first paragraph but the probable view of an adolescent. The structure, "they may seem X; they may even seem Y", clearly indicates that X and Y are on the same semantic scale and Y is further along than X. Y is "irrelevant" (of no interest or importance), which is clearly negative, so X is something negative, though less so.

Moreover, "may seem" suggests that in the author's view, X and Y are mistaken judgements: it implies that an adolescent may think this, but he/she would be wrong. The author clearly believes and values these ideas, so the hypothetical adolescent doesn't, or at least not entirely.

2. Stage 2 is some straightforward dictionary work. I think Oxford online expresses the double facet of "lofty" perfectly:

"1.1 Of a noble or exalted nature:
an extraordinary mixture of harsh reality and lofty ideals
1.2 Proud, aloof, or self-important:
lofty intellectual disdain"
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_eng...

I believe both these ideas are present. It means that an adolescent may consider these ideas noble and elevated (but implicitly rather highflown and perhaps unrealistic: something short of irrelevant but tending in that direction), but also somewhat pretentious, self-important, self-satisfied. "Lofty", in the sense of "elevated" or "noble", is rather a literary word, pregnant with potential implicit irony.

3. Then I think the author expects us to imagine what the typical adolescent would think of what's been said in paragraph 1. I'm not suggesting for a moment that adolescents are typically indifferent to idealism and high moral values, or (more to the point) that the author thinks so, but they are typically sceptical of the views of their parents and teachers and similar people, and resistant to being preached at.

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Note added at 23 hrs (2014-07-31 11:53:54 GMT)
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Hi, Haribert. My reading may or may not be coloured by the fact that I have two adolescent sons :) I hope this has not made me cynical.
I see your point, and I do think that in practice "irrelevant" means irrelevant to the adolescent. Adolescents are supposed to be (and certainly sometimes are) self-centred or sollipsistic, and I think the imaginary adolescent reaction to these ideas is centred on how those ideas do or not relate to me (the adolescent), rather than to humanity in general.
I think the sense of "lofty" here (from an adolescent's point of view) is closer to "pretentious" than to "noble"; not quite pretentious, perhaps, but airy-fairy, highfalutin, and also preachy, pontificating (from a lofty height), all very well in theory, perhaps, but, yes, a bit pompous. I don't think attainability or unattainability is the main point; I don't think "ambitious" is the central idea.
Selected response from:

Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 22:58
Grading comment
Charles, thank you so much for your your thorough analysis! I think that in my translation I’ll look for a word that can combine the nuances of “highflown” and “preachy”, but that can also suggest an underlying positive value... I’ll try to put myself in the shoes of an Italian teenager! I am aware, though, that it won’t be easy at all and that perhaps I won't succeed in conveying all the meanings of the original term...Still, I will try to.
I also wish to thank all other contributors for this incredibly fruitful exchange: I would have never expected that a single little word such as “lofty” might lead to such an interesting discussion! It’s really an example of the so-called co-construction of knowledge, I guess!!
But that's also the power of language and communication....
Thanks again to all of you!

4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



SUMMARY OF ALL EXPLANATIONS PROVIDED
3 +3very high and good
DLyons
4 +2too ambitious
Susie Rawson
4 +2Noble, but also highflown and pretentious, with a suggestion of pomposity and self-importance
Charles Davis
5difficult to attain
Charlesp
4grandiose
Václav Pinkava


Discussion entries: 9





  

Answers


20 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +3
very high and good


Explanation:
Deserving to be admired - as per Merriam-Webster.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 45 mins (2014-07-30 12:47:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I take your point - there is a suggestion that these might be seen as "aspirational", perhaps "unworldly", "impractical", hence the "even irrelevant".

DLyons
Ireland
Local time: 21:58
Works in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 52
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks for your contribution! My doubt derives from the subsequent sentence: "They may even seem irrelevant"....It seemed strange to me that the author mentioned such contrasting opinions...The use of "even" in particular... Shouldn't he have said something like: "in contrast"....


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Armorel Young: exalted, noble, very grand - to me, it doesn't have any negative or disparaging connotations (in other words, it can mean"ambitious" but not "too ambitious")
19 mins
  -> Thanks Armorel.

agree  Veronika McLaren: To an adolescent...?..."grand" with a hint of "unreachable"
31 mins
  -> Thanks Veronika.

agree  Natalia Volkova
6 hrs
  -> Thanks Natalia.
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
too ambitious


Explanation:
Not necessarily in a negative way, but the sentence that follows indicates that, from an adolescent´s point of view, it sounds like a bit too much to hope for. So I believe Haribert´s initial instinct was right.

Susie Rawson
Argentina
Native speaker of: Native in SpanishSpanish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Yvonne Gallagher: or quite unattainable/unrealistic (from an adolescent's point of view)
55 mins
  -> Thank you Gallagy. As writeaway suggests, maybe the word *too* is not really necessary.

neutral  writeaway: why too?
1 hr
  -> You may be right. Probably just *ambitious* is enough to convey the idea. Or even *quite* ambitious (and I´m taking Gallagy´s suggestion into consideration here)

agree  Tina Vonhof (X)
1 day 1 hr
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9 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
Noble, but also highflown and pretentious, with a suggestion of pomposity and self-importance


Explanation:
I'm sorry, but with the partial exception of El oso, nobody has so far expressed the meaning of this as I understand it.

There is no doubt, to my mind, that "lofty" carries negative connotations here (not entirely negative, but still negative).

1. Let's first consider the contextual clues. "Lofty", whatever it means, represents not the author's view of the ideas in the first paragraph but the probable view of an adolescent. The structure, "they may seem X; they may even seem Y", clearly indicates that X and Y are on the same semantic scale and Y is further along than X. Y is "irrelevant" (of no interest or importance), which is clearly negative, so X is something negative, though less so.

Moreover, "may seem" suggests that in the author's view, X and Y are mistaken judgements: it implies that an adolescent may think this, but he/she would be wrong. The author clearly believes and values these ideas, so the hypothetical adolescent doesn't, or at least not entirely.

2. Stage 2 is some straightforward dictionary work. I think Oxford online expresses the double facet of "lofty" perfectly:

"1.1 Of a noble or exalted nature:
an extraordinary mixture of harsh reality and lofty ideals
1.2 Proud, aloof, or self-important:
lofty intellectual disdain"
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_eng...

I believe both these ideas are present. It means that an adolescent may consider these ideas noble and elevated (but implicitly rather highflown and perhaps unrealistic: something short of irrelevant but tending in that direction), but also somewhat pretentious, self-important, self-satisfied. "Lofty", in the sense of "elevated" or "noble", is rather a literary word, pregnant with potential implicit irony.

3. Then I think the author expects us to imagine what the typical adolescent would think of what's been said in paragraph 1. I'm not suggesting for a moment that adolescents are typically indifferent to idealism and high moral values, or (more to the point) that the author thinks so, but they are typically sceptical of the views of their parents and teachers and similar people, and resistant to being preached at.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 23 hrs (2014-07-31 11:53:54 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Hi, Haribert. My reading may or may not be coloured by the fact that I have two adolescent sons :) I hope this has not made me cynical.
I see your point, and I do think that in practice "irrelevant" means irrelevant to the adolescent. Adolescents are supposed to be (and certainly sometimes are) self-centred or sollipsistic, and I think the imaginary adolescent reaction to these ideas is centred on how those ideas do or not relate to me (the adolescent), rather than to humanity in general.
I think the sense of "lofty" here (from an adolescent's point of view) is closer to "pretentious" than to "noble"; not quite pretentious, perhaps, but airy-fairy, highfalutin, and also preachy, pontificating (from a lofty height), all very well in theory, perhaps, but, yes, a bit pompous. I don't think attainability or unattainability is the main point; I don't think "ambitious" is the central idea.

Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 22:58
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 236
Grading comment
Charles, thank you so much for your your thorough analysis! I think that in my translation I’ll look for a word that can combine the nuances of “highflown” and “preachy”, but that can also suggest an underlying positive value... I’ll try to put myself in the shoes of an Italian teenager! I am aware, though, that it won’t be easy at all and that perhaps I won't succeed in conveying all the meanings of the original term...Still, I will try to.
I also wish to thank all other contributors for this incredibly fruitful exchange: I would have never expected that a single little word such as “lofty” might lead to such an interesting discussion! It’s really an example of the so-called co-construction of knowledge, I guess!!
But that's also the power of language and communication....
Thanks again to all of you!
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thank you so much for your contribution! It almost seems as if you’ve read the book! Actually I also think that “lofty” has some negative nuance, but I think the problem may be this: If an adolescent thinks that these ideas are noble (though pretentious), why would an adolescent also think they are irrelevant? Or maybe an interpretation could be as follows (I imagine and adolescent is speaking): “These ideas that come from adults are pretentious and I have nothing to do with them, they are irrelevant TO ME (i.e. it is not that they are not important or valuable in general...the fact is that I don’t want to get involved/to have something to do with this pompous stuff coming from adults). Might it be so? Sorry, maybe I should post this in the Discussion, as well...

Asker: Hi, Charles. Thanks for your message! No, you didn't seem cynical to me at all! You've helped me a lot in understanding the nuances of this word in context, and also in finding the "right" translation, or at least, in trying to...


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  El oso: Es evidente que el diablo está en el contexto :)
7 hrs
  -> Así lo veo yo :) ¡Gracias!

neutral  Charlesp: could be. But I am not so sure that it is meant in a negative way.
10 hrs
  -> OK, thanks.

agree  Tony M
3 days 19 hrs
  -> Thanks, Tony :)
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1 day 9 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
grandiose


Explanation:
In this context, this particular interpretation of lofty strikes me as being the common ground of the other suggestions here.
Herfe, lofty = grandiose because it emphasizes being awesome, aspiring, idealistically ambitious, yet with the downside which is brought by seeking to show off, to impress; anything grandiose is less than practical to achieve, because it does not forego the overhead costs of grandeur, it lacks the humility to be merely useful, and pragmatic, e.g. to be achieved anonymously.
To an adolescent "lofty" is a pejorative term, reminiscent of mentoring by elders and betters. It smacks of "nice to haves", hence the reference to verging on the irrelevant.
Adolescents are iconoclasts at heart. Get real. Just do it.

Václav Pinkava
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:58
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in CzechCzech, Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks, Václav , for your contribution! I was thinking about something along the lines of "self-righteous" (it would be "moraleggiante" in Italian...I'm not so sure about my re-translation into English...sorry!)..."moraleggiante" may convey the idea of something "preachy" from the point of view of an adolescent, but at the same time it hints (at least in Italian) to underlying moral principles, i.e. the "noble" nuance of "lofty"..... Thanks again!

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19 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
difficult to attain


Explanation:
difficult to attain, as important as they are

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Note added at 4 days (2014-08-04 09:52:52 GMT)
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I still think that "lofty" is a positive; as in lofty ideals, lofty goals, lofty objectives.

Charlesp
Sweden
Local time: 22:58
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Charles Davis: Hi, Charles. Could be in principle, but unlikely I think, because "difficult to attain but important, or even irrelevant" doesn't make sense to me; if they're important, albeit difficult, they can't be irrelevant.
1 hr
  -> I still think that "lofty" is a positive; as in lofty ideals.
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