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Czech to English translations [PRO] Social Sciences - History
Czech term or phrase:tamtež příslušný
In an 1872 death record from Zhoř u Pacova, the deceased is described as an 85-year-old "výminkář ze Zhoře č. d. 7, tamtež příslušný." I am uncertain what the last phrase means in this context. Any suggestions will be appreciated!
Explanation: Text is from y. 1872 with - literally means/doslovne : tamtéž - in the same place příslušnost - (oni přísluší ) - be a resident at, be domiciled at ...
Z textov : "Poys Leopold narozen v Zistersdorfu Rakousko, tamtéž příslušný, rak. štátny příslušník, rim. kat, ženatý..."
"Kridlo Josef, trestanec, nar. 1862 v Lochnici, okr. Hradec Kralove, rozen, tantéž prislušný, svobodný..."
"Páral Karel narozen v Holicích, príslušný tamtéž..." text je z 1872 roku
With dignity for some members: my first suggestion was "domiciled and not domicile " ... perhaps the same ...
1872 is only 2nd census and the registration ( who, where and under what conditions/law people where registered/domiciled was not so perfect as is today.
That's why I referred to this "particular" case, acknowledging (but overlooking) the complexities of domovská příslušnost. It has to be short and to the point in the certificate (surely tamtež příslušný is a form of shorthand in itself). I am by no means promoting "lived"; I am just stating that, in my opinion, in English we are usually "born and living in". [sorry if this is posted twice, my computer doesn't like ProZ today]
Rad Graban (X)
United Kingdom
@Stuart
15:49 Jun 22, 2013
But I'm still 'prislusny' in Poproc, Slovakia, even though visit only once a year, if so. What would this sentence be if I died in Walthamstow, London with being 'prislusny' still in Poproc? :)
I know I’m coming full circle here, but as noted I was pretty sure that “tamtež příslušný” (and here I place the emphasis on "tamtež") referred to the fact that he was “BORN and lived” there. There really are no other matches on Google (most of the references are police records). While I accept the argument that we need to convey some sort of “right to protection provided by a community and right to engage in the life thereof”, I would still contend that “born and lived” is the most natural English solution in this particular case (as he indeed [rightfully] lived there), though not perhaps the most accurate translation.
The deceased person in question was actually born in the very same house no. 7 in Zhoř. Based on all of your comments, I'm wondeirng if this is something like the German "mit Heimatberechtigung," i.e. "with right of domicile [there]."
Rad Graban (X)
United Kingdom
@Maria
14:56 Jun 22, 2013
No offence, but if I find, what I think is the best solution, in discussion, I always encourage the person who posted it in discussion to post it as the answer. I would never dream of 'stealing' it and posting it as mine. Dignity?
Rad Graban (X)
United Kingdom
Domicile
13:34 Jun 22, 2013
Just asking as e.g. I'm still domiciled/have (registered) permanent residence in my village back in Slovakia even though I've been living in the UK for 18 years, I'm on electoral roll here etc.
Crossed my mind, too, Rad. According to “reliable” old Wikipedia, and in the context of this discussion, “a person can remain domiciled in a jurisdiction even after they have left it, if they have maintained sufficient links with that jurisdiction or have not displayed an intention to leave permanently”. I wonder whether that would tally with (domovská) příslušnost?
Rad Graban (X)
United Kingdom
@Stuart
13:08 Jun 22, 2013
Could something like 'domicile' work in this case?
Yoy are right that the deceased lived, worked (http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Výměnek) and died there. I would only like to point out there is no indication whether the deceased was born in the village or moved (and obtained the domicile) there later. I wonder if it is not anologous to belonging to a parish in UK.
Rad Graban (X)
United Kingdom
@Stuart
11:26 Jun 22, 2013
"Tamtéž příslušný" basically means "with registered permanent residence also there" (in Zhoř). To be perfectly honest, I'm not keen on "registered therein", but can't think of anything else myself right now.
Point taken, I see the parallel with today’s “státní příslušnost”. The tantalisingly small extract provided by the asker appears to indicate that the deceased was born, lived, worked and died there. It may be a misplaced cultural approach that I automatically settled on "lived (resided)" and disregarded/dismissed “registered” here. Arguably, Anglo Saxons try to avoid referring to themselves as “registered” in any way.
Not exactly. You could be living in a municipality, but not have "domovskú príslušnost" here, but in a municipality of your birth (which was acquired automatically). If you moved to a town or village, you could obtain domicile therein either automatically (for instance by a marriage or assignment to an official post) or by explicit (based on your application) or implicit (by non-disputing the right to stay) act of the municipal board. It means that not all people staying in a municipality were iis official (registered) inhabitants. For example, I am almost sure that it was not applied to domestic servants, even if they lived in a municipality for a long time. Therefore, "příslušný tamtéž" rather means "having an official domicile therein" regardless of how the domicile was obtained.
"příslušný" neznamená, že tam ten člověk žil. Pokud zdědil příslušnost po rodičích, nemusel do té vesnice v životě vkročit. On tam byl prostě jen úředně registrován.
I took it for granted that “living” would generally incorporate the idea of “registered” in some way or another. “Příslušný“ itself doesn’t mean “statutorily registered”. “Tamtéž příslušný“ literally means “pertaining to the same place”, and a person may still have been of no fixed abode (“tamtéž příslušný, nestálého bydliště”). In Anglo Saxon countries I think the death certificate would have included “birthplace” and perhaps “usual residence”.
Explanation: it usually means “and living” (as in “born and living in”) e.g. “narozený 18. října 1867 v Nechanicích, tamtéž příslušný” But here he's dead, so "and lived". I presume the sentence started with his birth, as it were
Stuart Hoskins Local time: 06:51 Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 32
Explanation: (with explanation) or registered as citizen therein
To znamená, že měl v obci "domovské právo". Obecně se nabývalo narozením, sňatkem (u ženy) nebo přijetím "ve svazek domovský" (po deseti letech pobytu v obci). Domovské právo či též domovská příslušnost byl právní institut „příslušnosti k obci“. Představoval právo na nerušený pobyt v obci a na chudinské zaopatření z její strany. Institut domovské obce vznikl v českých zemích v souvislosti se zavedením obecní samosprávy v roce 1849, zůstal v platnosti i za první republiky a zrušen byl až roku 1948. Německy: Heimatgemeinde
Sarka Rubkova Czech Republic Local time: 06:51 Works in field Native speaker of: Czech PRO pts in category: 16