County of Bedford vs Bedfordshire

English translation: Bedfordshire

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
English term or phrase:County of Bedford vs Bedfordshire
Selected answer:Bedfordshire

06:27 Sep 10, 2012
    The asker opted for community grading. The question was closed on 2012-09-13 07:54:07 based on peer agreement (or, if there were too few peer comments, asker preference.)


English language (monolingual) [PRO]
Government / Politics
English term or phrase: County of Bedford vs Bedfordshire
Dear all
Who can tell me the difference between these two entries from official British forms:
1) Administrative area: County of Bedford,
2) Administrative area: County of Bedfordshire?
Hint - the first one comes from a 1970s form, the second one is new.
cquest
Local time: 10:25
Bedfordshire
Explanation:
Generally, the names of counties in EN are not preceded by 'County of...', except in archaic or very formal uses.

Some county names always take the '-shire' (e.g. Yorkshire, Lancashire), while others never do (e.g. Kent, Norfolk); the problem arises when some counties get abbreviated to just the name (usually of the main town); so 'Bedfordshire' is often shortened to just 'Bedford' (abb. 'Beds.'), while others do not (Yorkshire is only ever shortened to Yorks.)

Other counties do not use the '-shire', even though it once would have been common; cf. Dorset(shire) and Devon(shire) — though the latter older form is often still used to give quaint, rural appeal to local products like Devonshire cream.

So 'County of Bedford' OR 'Bedfordshire' are both correct; 'County of Bedfordshire' is arguably incorrect, since 'shire' and 'county' basically mean the same thing! But if there is an implied question "Waht county?", then obviously "Bedfordshire" makes sense as an answer.

Note that there is one county whose actual name is 'County Durham' (note absent 'of'!); there are also a number of County Boroughs, but that is a whole other issue...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 24 mins (2012-09-10 06:52:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Many county names were originally taken from their county town (Bedford, Nottingham, York, etc.), while others have different origins (Devon, Essex, Suffolk).

Local government reorganization in the '70s changed many county boundaries, did away with some altogether, and created some entirely new administrative areas.

R.I.P. Rutland!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 52 mins (2012-09-10 07:20:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sadly, this sort of thing is all too common these days, with the current generation of semi-literates.

Back in the '70s, 'the County of Bedford' would have been understood as correct, if pompous / formal.

Nowadays, people have forgotten the origins of these terms, so it's not uncommon to encounter an abomination like 'County of Bedfordshire'.

Of course, it's also complicated by the fact that we do indeed refer to 'the shire counties'!!!

Thankfully, we have J R R Tolkien to remind us with 'The Shire' (translated as 'Le Comté' in French)


I suppose historically, not all of these geographical areas were literally 'counties' (= with a Count) — but I think that archaic nicety has long been lost. I know there's a Duke of Bedford...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2012-09-10 07:29:15 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

There is also a question of register; the 'County of X' is these days rather formal, and will be found in official documents like 'Born this day, ..., in the County of Bedford, ...' blah blah. It is also the sort of thing you might find on the county's coat-of-arms, for example.

In everyday parlance, one would normally talk about Bedfordshire, which would be used in the names of organizations etc. — as in the (former) Bedfordshire County Council, Bedfordhsire Fire Service, etc.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 days1 hr (2012-09-13 08:08:39 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Just one little proviso, though: where the '-shire' is an inseperable part of the county name, you will of course then encounter the 'County of ...shire' construction, if the register of the document requires the 'County of...' syntax:

'County of Yorkshire / Lancashire / Lanarkshire / Shropshire' etc.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 days1 hr (2012-09-13 08:10:49 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Apologies for the typo: inseparable — I'm not illiterate, just a poor typist ;-)
Selected response from:

Tony M
France
Local time: 10:25
Grading comment
Thanks a lot for such an extensive and informative reply :) I've never seen a 'county of ...shire' before and that puzzled me.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



SUMMARY OF ALL EXPLANATIONS PROVIDED
4 +10Bedfordshire
Tony M
3s.u.
Expertlang


Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


12 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
county of bedford vs bedfordshire
s.u.


Explanation:
firstly refer to http://www.bedfordshire.gov.uk/
http://www.bedford.gov.uk/

UK:
county of bedfordshire does not exist anymore
bedford county court exists

US: Bedford County (Virginia)

Expertlang
Local time: 10:25
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Tony M: Bedfordshire certainly DOES still exist, they have just reorganized the administration so there is no longer a single County Council! / I did, and you did just say that: "county of bedfordshire does not exist anymore"
14 mins
  -> I am not saying that Bedfordshire does not exist - I live next to it!!! Please read my response thoroughly, then you will understand.

neutral  David Moore (X): "County of Bedforshire" never did exist....
3 hrs
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

21 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +10
Bedfordshire


Explanation:
Generally, the names of counties in EN are not preceded by 'County of...', except in archaic or very formal uses.

Some county names always take the '-shire' (e.g. Yorkshire, Lancashire), while others never do (e.g. Kent, Norfolk); the problem arises when some counties get abbreviated to just the name (usually of the main town); so 'Bedfordshire' is often shortened to just 'Bedford' (abb. 'Beds.'), while others do not (Yorkshire is only ever shortened to Yorks.)

Other counties do not use the '-shire', even though it once would have been common; cf. Dorset(shire) and Devon(shire) — though the latter older form is often still used to give quaint, rural appeal to local products like Devonshire cream.

So 'County of Bedford' OR 'Bedfordshire' are both correct; 'County of Bedfordshire' is arguably incorrect, since 'shire' and 'county' basically mean the same thing! But if there is an implied question "Waht county?", then obviously "Bedfordshire" makes sense as an answer.

Note that there is one county whose actual name is 'County Durham' (note absent 'of'!); there are also a number of County Boroughs, but that is a whole other issue...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 24 mins (2012-09-10 06:52:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Many county names were originally taken from their county town (Bedford, Nottingham, York, etc.), while others have different origins (Devon, Essex, Suffolk).

Local government reorganization in the '70s changed many county boundaries, did away with some altogether, and created some entirely new administrative areas.

R.I.P. Rutland!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 52 mins (2012-09-10 07:20:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sadly, this sort of thing is all too common these days, with the current generation of semi-literates.

Back in the '70s, 'the County of Bedford' would have been understood as correct, if pompous / formal.

Nowadays, people have forgotten the origins of these terms, so it's not uncommon to encounter an abomination like 'County of Bedfordshire'.

Of course, it's also complicated by the fact that we do indeed refer to 'the shire counties'!!!

Thankfully, we have J R R Tolkien to remind us with 'The Shire' (translated as 'Le Comté' in French)


I suppose historically, not all of these geographical areas were literally 'counties' (= with a Count) — but I think that archaic nicety has long been lost. I know there's a Duke of Bedford...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2012-09-10 07:29:15 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

There is also a question of register; the 'County of X' is these days rather formal, and will be found in official documents like 'Born this day, ..., in the County of Bedford, ...' blah blah. It is also the sort of thing you might find on the county's coat-of-arms, for example.

In everyday parlance, one would normally talk about Bedfordshire, which would be used in the names of organizations etc. — as in the (former) Bedfordshire County Council, Bedfordhsire Fire Service, etc.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 days1 hr (2012-09-13 08:08:39 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Just one little proviso, though: where the '-shire' is an inseperable part of the county name, you will of course then encounter the 'County of ...shire' construction, if the register of the document requires the 'County of...' syntax:

'County of Yorkshire / Lancashire / Lanarkshire / Shropshire' etc.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 days1 hr (2012-09-13 08:10:49 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Apologies for the typo: inseparable — I'm not illiterate, just a poor typist ;-)

Tony M
France
Local time: 10:25
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 12
Grading comment
Thanks a lot for such an extensive and informative reply :) I've never seen a 'county of ...shire' before and that puzzled me.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  David Moore (X)
18 mins
  -> Thanks, David!

agree  Jack Doughty
22 mins
  -> Thanks, Jack!

agree  kmtext
27 mins
  -> Thanks, KMT!

agree  Jenni Lukac (X): Wonderful reading. Well done!
36 mins
  -> Thanks a lot, Jenni!

agree  Rachel Fell: not to mention the Soke of Peterborough ;-) http://www.peterborough.gov.uk/leisure_and_culture/libraries... - am orig. from Cambs. ;-)
46 mins
  -> Thanks, Rachel! Why, that's a new one on me ;-)

agree  Yvonne Gallagher: absolutely!
2 hrs
  -> Thanks, G2!

agree  Charles Davis: Very thorough. As you say, "County of Bedford" as an alternative to "Bedfordshire" is perfectly correct, but only ever used in a limited range of formal, official contexts, and is rarer than it used to be even in official documents.
3 hrs
  -> Thanks, Charles!

agree  Aisha Maniar
3 hrs
  -> Thanks, Aisha!

agree  Martin Riordan: Such a display of erudition certainly deserves a vote!
4 hrs
  -> Thanks, Martin! Oh dear, that's what comes from being a former County employee, you see ;-)

agree  Caryl Swift: Perhaps the county authorities should invite you to give an elucidatory talk to some of their less aware staff members... // Better to laugh than cry, I guess :-)))
23 hrs
  -> Thanks, Caryl! LOL! I fear I'd probably have to start by spelling 'elucidatory' for them — and then explaining what it mean! I don't think it's in the Sun's vocabulary list...
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