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Explanation: Since it is the proper name of the payee, I think it is important for it to be left as is in FR, with an explanatory note if necessary.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 23 hrs (2012-05-27 14:33:56 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Right, well in the light of the extra context that has at last come to light, I'd say this is the solution to use, keeping the FR proper name, and adding the explanation in brackets afterwards.
Tony, yes, I agree with you that Treasury is unsuitable for a debit order with legal/transactional standing. But this is not the case here.
My point is that the term "Treasury" is suitable for the purpose of this particular translation (think synecdoche). Tax collection still falls under the aegis of the Treasury, at the end of the day.
Perhaps the best way to summarize my view is, if one is happy to choose an EN term (as I would be in this case), then Treasury is the simplest and most suitable.
My bias is to always find a way to express problematic terms in a way that the audience will understand with a minimum of clarification/additional explanation, which is why I prefer the EN term.
It's not a black & white question for me, which is why I insist on allowing Treasury as a possible answer (by no means THE correct answer, just A correct answer).
Anyway, I've enjoyed this discussion, thanks to Asker, Tony, Nikki & al :-) Bravo for *Trésor public* as the preferred answer ;-)
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your comment below; at least from my own UK perspective, it would be quite wrong to refer to the Treasury as the body that collects taxes; as Nikki has said, that properly translates 'Ministère des Finances', not 'Trésor Public'.
The difference between the civil service and executive government is relevant and vital here — and I go back to a comment I made earlier: in the UK at least, one would not address ones payment to the Treasury, but to the collecting agency. Hence in this asker's specific context, it is important not to confuse the different bodies.
As an aside, there is nothing wrong with the term Treasury. In both the US and UK, the Treasury administers the IRS and HM Revenue & Customs, respectively; the distinction between the civil service and the Executive is irrelevant here.
Once again, the decision should be made according to which term is judged to best fit the situation in which the translation will be used.
Keeping the FR term + simple footnote may work perfectly well, there's no unequivocally right or wrong answer here, it all depends on your interpretation of the target situation. But be sure to translate with your audience in mind.
If you confuse "Trésor public" with "Ministère des Finances..." you will be confusing "Internal Revenue Service" with "US Department of the Treasury", a confusion between civil service and executive government, a major error.
Thanks Nikki...its an excellent explanation. So, for footnote:"It is a French government tax collection agency which is known as “Internal revenue service” in US", to be precise!!
Translating "Trésor public" as "Treasury" is wrong, be it for the US or for the UK. The Treasury in either case is the Ministry. They are part of the executive power of the country. When elections are held, holders of ministerial office change. Those in the administrative positions, in the tax collection offices do not! http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0774837.html The "Trésor public" is the office which collects taxes, under the aegis of the DGPF, see previous posts. The "Inland revenue" collects taxes (on income in the UK). The "Internal Revenue Service" collects taxes (on income in the US).
For your footnote explanation, 'French government tax collection agency' would be the best solution IMHO (it is not an 'authority' as such); for all the reasons already stated several times by Nikki et al, any use of 'treasury' is really to be avoided here, for both UK and US use.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trésor_public Le département du Trésor des États-Unis a pour fonction de répondre aux besoins fiscaux et monétaires de l'État fédéral. Il chapeaute notamment le fisc américain, appelé Internal Revenue Service (IRS). Le département est dirigé par le secrétaire au Trésor.
The site of the "US Department of the Treasury", akin thus to the UK meaning.
Conclusion? To use "treasury" as a synonym for "Trésor public" would be a mitake, for either a UK or a US target reader. In their case, it would back translate to the Misitry of Finance/Economy... or something similar but never to Trésor public.
Further, the above discussion is relevant only to a footnote. It is a banking dpcument indicating a payee and the name of the payee cannot be altered for Trésor public any more than it might be for Joe Smith.
"Trésor public : French government organism in charge of collecting tax on income. Similar function for such purposes to the US's Internal Revenue Service." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States "Tax collection : Taxpayers are required to voluntarily pay all taxes owed based on the self-assessed tax returns, as adjusted. […]. The IRS Collection Divisions are responsible for most collection activities.” See also : http://www.irs.gov/
The source country is France, so the reading for understanding has to be from a French point of view. There is no way round that; to do otherwise would be wrong.
The next problem is as per my post at 12h27. THe name of the payee cannot be changed. It is a proper noun. However, for purposes of clarification, in a footnote, with a US reader in mind, then whichever public body is in charge of collecting tax on revenue may be named in a similar way to the one I suggested :
(a) If the translation is needed for information purposes only (not a debit order itself), then I think "Treasury" is fine, maybe with a very brief footnote explaining that it refers to the French tax collection authority known as the "Trésor public". This seems to me the situation as presented by Pooja.
(b) If the translation is meant as an additional debit order and will be used in a transactional setting, then Tony is right and "Trésor public" must be kept unchanged, in the same way as one would not translate an individual or company's name in the same situation. But this honestly doesn't seem to be the case here.
Both options are right, depending on what the translation is for. So I would go with the option which fits the intended use of the translated document, rather than the original.
As several people have already explained to you, that is not really to be recommended here — it is not really a good explanation, and certainly in the UK, would actually be misleading. I think you have other suggestions that would be more suitable to use as an explanation.
Regardless of the other factors, it could only be your scenario #1 — only the FR government would have used the term 'Tresor public' in the first place.
So, let me see if I understand this correctly: the individual in question needs the debit order translated into EN purely as proof that he owns (and pays tax on) property in France? The translation is not meant to be a legally binding transactional document authorizing another bank to set up an additional debit order with the French Gov? It's purely for information purposes?
This is a letter sent by CENTRE PRÉLÈVEMENT SERVICE 59868 LILLE CEDEX 9 to a taxpayer living in Germany need to be submitted to family court as proof for the existence of properties in France Audience: Family Court , California
Pooja, tks; OK, so the following situations spring to mind:
(1) the taxpayer is a French citizen living & generating an income in the US, liable to pay taxes to the French state and thus authorizing her US bank to set up a debit order accordingly (in which case Tony's answer is 100% correct).
(2) the taxpayer is a French national who has relocated to the US and now wants to authorize the US government to debit her taxes directly, using the French debit order as a template/source text (though one would imagine the US Gov & banks have their own forms for this), in which case one needs to use the US equivalent of the FR term.
(3) the individual is a French national, lives & works in both France and the US, pays taxes in both countries, and needs the French debit order translated in order to authorize the US Gov to debit her US taxes directly off her account.
Maybe I'm overcomplicating things and it's obvious it's scenario 1, but it's worth asking :-)
You make out cheques for payment to the Trésor Public for income tax, hospital fees, various fines, certain courses run by public institutions (universities)... certainly not just for income tax.
"Does the appellation "Trésor public" still exist?
10:45 May 27, 2012
Yes!
Although the actual places have been re-named (no doubt at great expense!) 'Centre des finances publiques', we still have to make cheques out to 'Trésor public' (sigh!)
I think everything revolves around the purpose of the translated text. For instance, if the taxpayer in question is receiving income outside of France, and needs her original debit order translated for the foreign bank, then Tony & Nikki are absolutely right, the payee details must be exactly as in the French, as it is a legal document under French jurisdiction (does the appellation "Trésor public" still exist, see Nikki's/my refs?).
However, if the translation is meant as a template for other taxpayers in EN countries, then the payee details must of course conform to the respective country's tax authority, in which case one needs an EN term (such as Treasury, etc).
The key question to ask is: in the translation situation, is the taxpayer under French or another jurisdiction?
There could be other purposes leading to other situations and solutions. Pooja, could you enlighten us? :-)
In view of the fact that this is a direct debit authorization, then the original language version must be kept. Payment can only be made to correctly named payees.
In a footnote, then it may well be necessary to consider the country of the target reader. If this is for the UK, then "treasury" would not be a suitable generic term as it specifically describes the minstry of economics and finance. Still with the UK as an example, if the target reader is in the UK, and if this is for payment of "impôt sur le revenu" then "Inland Revenue" would be a useful comparison. This does not mean that substituting "Trésor public" by "Inland Revenue" would be correct on the direct debit authorization though as France does not have an Inland Revenue. The note might however contain "Trésor public : French government organism in charge of collecting tax on income. Similar function for such purposes to the UK's Inland Revenue".
That is just by way of example. The Asker will decide how best to present a footnote etc.
The correct EN term really depends on the target country (US/UK/other?). I'm not sure that leaving it in FR is the best option, it's a matter of knowing what it refers to.
If this refers to a debit order authorization for the automatic payment of income tax (sort of a direct PAYE between the individual taxpayer and the taxman), then one simply needs to determine which government department is responsible for collecting taxes in the target country.
So far, Treasury is the most generic and appropriate term.
AUTORISATION DE PRÉLÈVEMENT J'autorise l'établissement teneur de mon compte à effectuer sur ce dernier, si sa situation le permet, les prélèvements d'impôts ordonnés par le Trésor Public. En cas de litige sur un prélèvement, je pourrai en faire suspendre l'exécution par simple demande à l'établissement teneur de mon compte. Je réglerai le différend directement avec le Trésor Public.
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Answers
11 mins confidence: peer agreement (net): +1
the Treasury
Explanation: The use of the uppercase "T" denotes that it is the public treasury.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 12 mins (2012-05-26 15:35:58 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
If you have specific information that it is a State or Federal treasury, you can add this, but it will most likely be clear from the rest of your text.
Jenn Mercer United States Local time: 01:37 Native speaker of: English
peer agreement (net): +1
